E6 (E10?) in Fourth Edition

[Leatherhead]

I find that mid-paragon is the sweet spot for 4e. Heroic tier relies on at-will attacks to the point where it is spammy. Using one daily per encounter is right where the fun is at, because everyone gets to do something awesome at least once a fight. You have enough encounter powers to ride out the bulk of the combat, and at-wills become backups instead of main attacks (as they should be). Lower levels tend to emphasize encounter or at-will utilities, but paragon has enough were you can get dailies and even non-combat utilities without much hassle.

Level is ultimately an abstract concept in 4e anyway. You can have a level 1 orc and a level 30 orc, or a level 1 solo and a level 30 minion. The only question you have to ask is "How tough do I want this monster to be in relation to the PCs?"

 

[bagger245]

The main reason is that I don't want to have the PCs "level past" challenges, forcing me to keep swapping out low-level monsters for new higher-level equivalents. That constant turnover both strains verisimilitude (where were all these monsters before?) and makes it difficult to keep a coherent theme going.

With a stable power level, the players can really get a feel for the game world and their place in it, because that place isn't constantly changing. They can learn about their foes, get a feel for their tactics and capabilities. I want the PCs to be able to spot a gang of monsters, count heads, and have a fair idea of whether they can take them in an open fight--and if not, what might be required to even the odds.

When the PCs are constantly running into whole new breeds of monster, they have to rely on me to calibrate the threat level and communicate to them whether this is a winnable fight or not, because otherwise they can't possibly know. I'd like to be able to simply decide, "Okay, there should be 25 orcs in this camp," and then let the players figure out what to do about it.

I do prefer to avoid most of that, but that's not so much an issue in 4E. Those elements have been drastically reduced and are not hard to eliminate altogether. Still, not having to bother is a bonus.

If so, they would be as archvillains and uber-threats--the PCs would have to come up with some way to deal with them other than charging in with guns blazing.

You can always level up all the kobolds and goblinoids to paragon/epic tier. It's easy to do in 4e.

 

[S'mon]

I find that mid-paragon is the sweet spot for 4e. Heroic tier relies on at-will attacks to the point where it is spammy. Using one daily per encounter is right where the fun is at, because everyone gets to do something awesome at least once a fight. You have enough encounter powers to ride out the bulk of the combat, and at-wills become backups instead of main attacks (as they should be). Lower levels tend to emphasize encounter or at-will utilities, but paragon has enough were you can get dailies and even non-combat utilities without much hassle.

That's an issue with number of fights per day. If you only have 1 fight per day, like in most fantasy fiction, then Dailies and Encounter powers are more prominent.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think there was a thread either in House Rules or in D&D 4 Rules that discussed removing all the level-related bonuses. In some ways, this gives you an "E1" type of game. The only difference over the levels is the number of powers, and even that is capped in the end.

You can just stop applying level bonuses at 10th level. So, monsters get a maximum bonus from level equal to 10, PCs equal to 5.



During Paragon Tier, a PC gets one extra Encounter Attack and one Extra daily attack compared to his lower tier counterpart. Beyond that, you only get more utility powers, not more attacks. These powers are also strictly limited - they are only paragon path powers. They can't be retrained (well, ignoring some possible cheese with a few feats perhaps).

Do you want to still give PCs Paragon Path powers? Do you want them to have 4 or 3 encounter and daily attack powers? Do you want them to have Paragon Path abilities? (Like Action Point features and the 16th level benefit?). If you say yes to 4 encounter/daily powers and action point features and 16h level paragon abilities and so on, you can just stop the leveling bonus to everything and cap the magic item bonus at +3.

If you think 3 encounter and daily attacks are enough, consider this for "Capstone" abilities after 10th level:
1. When the PC has gained enough XP to advance to 11th level, he can pick one paragon tier feat and gains a +1 bonus to all ability scores, as usual, and he can pick one "Action Point" benefit. This benefit should be one found with a Paragon Path, but they need DM approval. (Since these benefits aren't balanced...)

Afterwards, everytime the PC has gained enough XP to advance half the way from 10th to 11th level (this is a fixed XP value but I don't know what it is exactly without by books), he can retrain as if he had gained a new level and pick one of the following benefits:

1) New Heroic Tier Feat
2) Pick one at-will attack power. After each short rest, he can exchange one of his at-will attack powers of the same level or higher against this power.
3) Pick one encounter attack power of 7th level or lower. After each short rest, he can exchange one of his encounter attack powers of the same level or higher against this power.
4) Pick one daily attack power of 9th level or lower. After each extended rest, he can exchange one of his daily attack powers of the same level or higher against this power.
5) Pick one Utility power of 10th level or lower. After each short or extended rest, he can exchange one of his unexpended utility powers of the same level against this power.
All power choices can be of any of your classes (hybrid, multiclass, normal).
6) He can pick a second Hybrid Talent. This option is available only once.
7) He can choose to retrain up to two points of his ability score increases he gained on 4th and 8th level (the 11th level increases can't be retrained.)
8) Pick a further Action Point benefit. The PC can only benefit from one of these per action point spend.
9) Forego an immediate benefit for a different option the next time he gains a level. The DM might restrict access to certain powers and feats.
- 1 Paragon Tier feat
- Pick one encounter attack power of 13th level or lower. After each short rest, he can exchange one of his encounter attack powers of 1st level or higher against this power.
- Pick one daily attack power of 15th level or lower. After each extended rest, he can exchange one of his daily attack powers of 1st level or higher against this power.
- Pick one extra Utility power of 16th level or lower. This option is only available once.
- Pick one At-Will as an encounter power. This option is available only once.
- Pick one At-Will previously picked as encounter power as at-will power. This option is available only once.
- Gain one extra daily item power.

 

[S'mon]

You can always level up all the kobolds and goblinoids to paragon/epic tier. It's easy to do in 4e.

Well, you do need some kind of justification or else players won't be happy, but it's easy enough to do.

Eg: Looking at the MM Orcs typically vary from the weakest 4th level minions (Orc Drudges) to 7th level Brute warriors; with the typical chief an 8th level Elite. Mid-paragon PCs can fight those 7th level Brute warriors converted into 7+8=15th level minions, retaining the same XP value, and you can have Orc Champions who are themselves mid-paragon creatures.

Likewise, MM-MM2 Human warriors typically vary from 2nd level (Human Bandit) to 9th (Human Pirate), though champions can be any level. So you can use 9+8=17th level minion pirates or other tough fighters at mid-high paragon tier, while paragon-level heroes and champions are encountered singly or in small groups.

Edit: If you keep in mind an expected level range and apply it consistently, the PCs should still be able to make a reasonable assessment of their victory chances based on prior experience. The PCs IMC know that White Fist orcs are mostly weak minions (Drudge min-4s), whereas Crushed Skull orc warriors are much more powerful (Warrior min-9s).

Likewise PCs could learn that the Red Hand Pirates of the Barachas (skirmisher-9 to minion-17) are much more fearsome foes than the Greenhorn Bandits of the Wildwood (skirmisher-2 to min-10), and have an edge even over the Cavalier Knights of Kordava (soldier-7 to minion-15).

 

[TerraDave]

On monsters, your (Dausuul) right, you could use the mid teen monsters (which is probably where you would want to stop) with some care.

Though, it would just be easier to slow advacement and maybe play into the lower teens (which would known as the top levels in the world). Then start a new game.

 

[Votan]

That is true for some, sure. I think, though, that the general design of games people play for extended periods shows that advancement is rather more important than you imply here.

I agree that leveling up is an important reward system (which is why it is so popular in role playing games). But systems like GURPS manage it with very little actual advancement. But, I agree with you that no advancement makes it a lot harder on the DM as the in story rewards have to comepnsate for leveling up so it's not a trvival element to remove.

 

[Obryn]

I've personally found that Paragon tier actually runs better than Heroic, but I can completely understand the frustration inherent in having the party out-level interesting monsters. There's no wrong way to play.

If you want a level cap, though, why not go with 11 instead of 10? The paragon path (along with its features and extra encounter power) seems like a better "Name Level" point or capstone achievement than 10th level (where you don't really get much, honestly.) It'd give you more diversity in your party, and the PCs would have extra stuff to do before relying on At-Wills.

-O

 

[PoeticJustice]

So, back in 3E, a version of the game known as E6 sprang up. Details are here, but the basic conceit was that you would level up to 6 normally, then remain at 6th level for the rest of your career. Every so often you'd get a new feat, but you wouldn't continue up the normal 3E power curve into high-level wackiness.

The goal was to create a consistent play experience in the "low heroic" level range, and preserve a sense of advancement (new feats) while avoiding the headaches of high-level campaigns. It sounded very interesting, but I've never had occasion to try it out.

What I like most is the consistent play aspect - regular orc grunts can continue to be a threat throughout the game. It means the DM doesn't have to keep coming up with newer, bigger villain factions, and it also allows the players to develop a sense of scale. You look at a bunch of orcs, and you have a decent idea whether or not you can take them, because you've fought orcs before and your power level has not changed drastically since then.

Anyway, a friend of mine and I were talking at lunch today, and he mentioned that if he starts a new 4E campaign soon, it will be strictly Heroic tier. I agreed that Heroic tier seems to work better (at least for me) than Paragon or Epic. And, as mentioned above, I really like the idea of a consistent power level instead of the ever-increasing curve. So I got to thinking about what E6 would look like in 4E... or E10, more likely; get to the top of Heroic tier and stop there.

What does everyone think? Would it work? What do you think would be required to keep the feeling of advancement without substantially increasing character power past level 10? Is it enough to just hand out a new feat every so often, or would you give out powers as well?

(Oh, incidentally, I'm not interested in talking about my issues with Paragon and Epic. I'm sure I could hammer out fixes for them if I wanted, but the reason I started thinking about E6/E10 was the realization that I don't really want Paragon or Epic tier--I don't like having the power level of the campaign climb into the stratosphere.)

Speaking as someone who's ran a lot of E6 and thought about trying the same thing for 4th, I don't think it's a great idea for a campaign. Here's why

1) I haven't found a sweet spot in 4E that's comparable to 3.5 level 6, and 10th level definitely isn't what you're looking for. It's fine to want to freeze relative power level at a given moment in the 30 level range, but 10th level is, metaphorically, the cruelest moment of a character's adolescence. 10 level imparts a mere utility power and standard bonus bump. 11th level is tantalizingly close, when entire suites of abilities throw open their doors to the player.

Not a problem for you, right? After all, the goal of E6 is to cornball, unimaginative high-powered antics away. However, in 4th edition, with great power comes matching challenges. This is because the game balances those neat level 11-15 monsters by giving them powers commensurate to what players get when they hit paragon level. However, players end up fighting level 11-15 monsters long before they get to paragon level. To summarize: level ten is a moment of peculiar systemic difficulty. I would recommend level 6 or 16, instead.

2) Feats fill a completely different design function.
In 3.5, every class had several home-run, awesome, A+ quality feats. You could practically build your character on feats. There were feats that gave extra attacks, extra spells, more sneak attack dice, holy powers, unholy powers, better animal companions, a familiar, spell-like abilities, etc. Now feats usually don't grant some new ability--rather, it they usually serve to increase the range or modifier of a power or skill. I doubt players of 4E get the same thrill 3.5 players got after finally getting Arcane Thesis or Multishot, so the leveraging point that made E6 great, that one was continually getting fun abilities despite not advancing in level, is lost.

These days, the comparable design elements to 3.5 feats are the class features one picks at character creation and the powers they unlock as they advance. You could either make 4E feats better or figure out a way to incorporate new powers. Either would help, and I suspect at least one would be necessary.

 

[KidSnide]

Well, I never ran E6, but I am running a formerly 3.x campaign (playing ~ every other week) that made it from level 3 to level 7 from 2000 to 2008,* so I think I have some understanding of keeping a game at the sweet spot for a long time.

From my perspective, it is perfectly natural to want to run a heroic-only 4e game. It's not just about the sweet spot, it's about the amount of magic you want in the world. To use 3e terms, your campaign gets a lot closer to "mythical history" if only the most powerful wizards in the world have access to 5th level spells. That's appealing in a lot of ways, and I think you get the same effect in a heroic only world.

As to the specific advice, I would simply slow down leveling. Let your PCs reach level 3 (or 4, or 5) at "regular" speed, and then use your GM discretion to slow down advancement so they reach upper levels (e.g. 8-10) near a satisfying end point.

I suppose my experience differs from many, but most of the D&D games I play in work fine with minimal level gain. Sure, everyone like more power, but accomplishing meaningful objectives is a lot more important. Once your players are invested in the game, they should care more about what happens in the game than any mechanical rewards.

-KS

* In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that - now that we've converted to 4e - I am planning to increase the rate of level gain. I hope it isn't a mistake...