That is true for some, sure. I think, though, that the general design of games people play for extended periods shows that advancement is rather more important than you imply here.
E6 (E10?) in Fourth Edition
That is true for some, sure. I think, though, that the general design of games people play for extended periods shows that advancement is rather more important than you imply here.
RangerWickett
Legend
So Dausuul, what's the main reason you want to stop at 10th? Even though you said you didn't want to get into it, it would help to know what aspects of paragon and epic play you dislike, so we can figure out how best to avoid them.
Do you just want to avoid the teleporting, raising of the dead, powerful divinations, and over-the-top powers like flying and such? Would you ever want to use monsters like hydras, mind flayers, and huge dragons?
Do you just want to avoid the teleporting, raising of the dead, powerful divinations, and over-the-top powers like flying and such? Would you ever want to use monsters like hydras, mind flayers, and huge dragons?
RangerWickett
Legend
If I were going to do something like this for my own campaign, I would take inspiration from the game that is currently eating up my friends' time: Modern Warfare 2. In there you have to level up to get access to new equipment, and you have to perform certain accomplishments to unlock modifications to that equipment.
Like, you might get a nifty new machine gun at level 4, but if you want a red dot sight, you've got to kill 10 people first. Then if you kill 50 more people with the red dot sight attached, you'll unlock the thermal sight. If you get 50 kills with bullet penetration (as in, your target's behind flimsy cover and you shoot through the cover to hit him), you unlock extended ammo clips, and so on.
I wouldn't do it quite the same way, but I'd go for the same general idea of "let the player know there are things he can get access to if he takes the right actions."
For instance, tell the players that in every "region" of the world, you're going to include at least one martial exploit, one arcane spell, one divine prayer, and so on. The PCs can learn their own powers as normal as they level up, up to level 10, but they can also get bonus powers if they track down teachers, study under them for at least (insert timeline here), and pay some amount of XP.
So when they get to the ogre village, they might be able to learn the new ranger "chuck and charge" at-will from the ogre warchief, or pick up a warlock daily from the ogre who formed a pact with a demon, or learn an invoker utility from the woman who's leading a slave revolt. Any player could learn any of these abilities, so the fighter might pick up a holy power, or the wizard might learn to throw his orb implement like a shotput.
It would require just a bit of work, but I think it would make the game fun, because the PCs would be on the lookout for new 'unlockables.'
Like, you might get a nifty new machine gun at level 4, but if you want a red dot sight, you've got to kill 10 people first. Then if you kill 50 more people with the red dot sight attached, you'll unlock the thermal sight. If you get 50 kills with bullet penetration (as in, your target's behind flimsy cover and you shoot through the cover to hit him), you unlock extended ammo clips, and so on.
I wouldn't do it quite the same way, but I'd go for the same general idea of "let the player know there are things he can get access to if he takes the right actions."
For instance, tell the players that in every "region" of the world, you're going to include at least one martial exploit, one arcane spell, one divine prayer, and so on. The PCs can learn their own powers as normal as they level up, up to level 10, but they can also get bonus powers if they track down teachers, study under them for at least (insert timeline here), and pay some amount of XP.
So when they get to the ogre village, they might be able to learn the new ranger "chuck and charge" at-will from the ogre warchief, or pick up a warlock daily from the ogre who formed a pact with a demon, or learn an invoker utility from the woman who's leading a slave revolt. Any player could learn any of these abilities, so the fighter might pick up a holy power, or the wizard might learn to throw his orb implement like a shotput.
It would require just a bit of work, but I think it would make the game fun, because the PCs would be on the lookout for new 'unlockables.'
Nifft
Penguin Herder
The thing about 3.x, though, is that for a Fighter-type, your gear + your feats are your powers. They're what you can do each and every round. You don't (usually) run out of them, and if you get more, you can use all of them at once.
For a Wizard-type, your collected XP is (the hard part of) your magic item budget. There's no restrictions on how many Scrolls you can throw down during an encounter. You can run out of them, but what happens as you not-level advance is that you end up with a small store of "free" daily spells, plus a huge library of relatively expensive ones.
You can't easily replicate either of those with 4e, because in 4e every repeatable cool trick is siloed into a Power, and you have strict limits on Power use.
Again, I ask: how much farther than 10th do you want your game to go? 4e has a ceiling. You may be able to adjust that ceiling, but it's still going to be there.
Cheers, -- N
The main reason is that I don't want to have the PCs "level past" challenges, forcing me to keep swapping out low-level monsters for new higher-level equivalents. That constant turnover both strains verisimilitude (where were all these monsters before?) and makes it difficult to keep a coherent theme going.
With a stable power level, the players can really get a feel for the game world and their place in it, because that place isn't constantly changing. They can learn about their foes, get a feel for their tactics and capabilities. I want the PCs to be able to spot a gang of monsters, count heads, and have a fair idea of whether they can take them in an open fight--and if not, what might be required to even the odds.
When the PCs are constantly running into whole new breeds of monster, they have to rely on me to calibrate the threat level and communicate to them whether this is a winnable fight or not, because otherwise they can't possibly know. I'd like to be able to simply decide, "Okay, there should be 25 orcs in this camp," and then let the players figure out what to do about it.
I do prefer to avoid most of that, but that's not so much an issue in 4E. Those elements have been drastically reduced and are not hard to eliminate altogether. Still, not having to bother is a bonus.
If so, they would be as archvillains and uber-threats--the PCs would have to come up with some way to deal with them other than charging in with guns blazing.
Hey, awesome idea! I definitely want to think about implementing that one.
I think it should work, but probably best in a game where 10th level characters are 'Name Level' Lords, Mages, High Priests etc towards the end of their adventuring careers. If they're engaged in politics, warfare and territory development then their ceasing to advance much in personal killerosity is less important.
Depending on how often you play, it might also be best to combine this with reduced XP awards so you get something resembling the traditional AD&D campaign paradigm of slow advancement, then 'retirement' at Name level.
Depending on how often you play, it might also be best to combine this with reduced XP awards so you get something resembling the traditional AD&D campaign paradigm of slow advancement, then 'retirement' at Name level.
davethegame
Explorer
Very cool idea, and I get what you're saying for wanting to do it. My campaign is in paragon and I'm looking forward to epic, but storywise, can't see myself running in the upper 20's, even if the sweet spot does work because I'm not sure I'm going to have every adventure be "kill another god."
The way I would handle it is the opposite of what some others were suggesting- cap most things at level 6 or 10 or whatever for power progression and numbers, but allow players to upgrade powers. So an encounter attack power could get upgraded to the next highest level of encounter attack power, etc. (You might need a rule to enforce parity among the different powers, or you might not.)
What interests me about this idea is that powers don't necessarily go up based on your numbers, which does get inflated as you go up in level. Your chance to hit is going to remain roughly the same when fighting the same bad guys, but when you connect, you deal more damage and have higher effects based on the improved powers.
I think this is closest to the original spirit of E6-you mainly got better there by gaining more feats, which were a major vector of improving your character in more interesting ways in 3e, while I see powers as taking that role in 4e.
The way I would handle it is the opposite of what some others were suggesting- cap most things at level 6 or 10 or whatever for power progression and numbers, but allow players to upgrade powers. So an encounter attack power could get upgraded to the next highest level of encounter attack power, etc. (You might need a rule to enforce parity among the different powers, or you might not.)
What interests me about this idea is that powers don't necessarily go up based on your numbers, which does get inflated as you go up in level. Your chance to hit is going to remain roughly the same when fighting the same bad guys, but when you connect, you deal more damage and have higher effects based on the improved powers.
I think this is closest to the original spirit of E6-you mainly got better there by gaining more feats, which were a major vector of improving your character in more interesting ways in 3e, while I see powers as taking that role in 4e.
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