Should the Greatsword be d12?

keterys said:

I'm not entirely sure... could just have the ability to put in your own bonus damage (at which point it's reasonable for letting a character choose the best weapon specifically for them), could pick a range of values for bonus damage (say not optimized, optimized, middle of the line) and factor them all in, could have a way to compare weapons and 'Seek'... I mean, it's all a bit of work unfortunately.

I suspect the first option is the easy route and ensures its relevance to someone.

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Let's split it down to the elemental problem.

You're argument is the extra +1 from 'high accuracy' weapons is being under-reported.

And you state a valid concern that, the higher the person's level, the more important that extra +1 is.

In my current equation, I'm taking the assumed hit rate of 50% and multiplying it by 1.75 * the average damage (average damage is artificially boosted to make large damage weapons more important).

This works out to: (45% + Accuracy / 20) * (avg dmg * 1.75) + (1.75 * Max Damage * 0.05)

The first part is the 45% chance of doing average damage (scaled upwards by the accuracy) plus the 5% crit times the max damage.

So, already my equation will make highly accurate weapons have a higher number in the fact it will have a 5% higher number per every +1.

Are you suggesting this get weighted higher somehow?

-- Hirahito

I'm saying that average damage isn't [W] but is [nW] + X, where X varies from 4 to 60 and n varies from 1 to 7. So, let's say you're a rogue trying to figure out whether to fire a crossbow or throw a dagger.

Crossbow: +2 Atk, 1d8 damage
Dagger: +4 Atk, 1d4 damage

If 45% hit, 5% crit, plus atk (so 60% hit with xbow, 70% with dagger)
So:
C=(4.5*n+X)*.55+(8*n+X)*.05
D=(2.5*n+X)*.65+(4*n+X)*.05
n=1, D>C when X>10
n=2, D>=C when X>=21
n=3, D>C when X>31
etc.

And the average W for a character varies based on campaign, tier, and class... I'd say the rogue I mentioned (+23.5 or +28.5) averages somewhere in the 1.6n range, so the dagger is a clear win for its attack bonus over damage.

Edit: Quick check, I verified that she'd actually be at least as well off using a weapon that did 0 damage but at +6 attack as the dagger, and such a weapon would score pretty badly under your spreadsheet indeed

And, again, the effect of a hit is immense. Even if we're not talking about powers (where, say, stunning strike and knockout show quite clearly why _hitting_ is important), a vanilla basic attack that hits can still kill minions and finish off enemies, for which sacrificing a fraction of a point of damage may well be worth it.

Well, this should at least make keterys somewhat happy. Doesn't consider multiple [W] yet. That was troubling me too much.

I bumped Dagger prof. to +4 even though it really only is a 3, it's not a competitive choice for a non-rogue, and I really didn't want to build the extra case for it. I allow you to specify several types of different attacks each with avg bonus damage, max bonus damage, miss damage (1H) and miss damage (2H). No edge cases for hammer rhythm yet, but this is really based on a first-level comparison so far. I accounted for no striker bonus (just a +4 from ability), Hunter's Quarry / Warlock's Curse, HQ with Lethal Hunter, Sneak attack, and Sneak Attack w/backstabber.

Results: Non-strikers still love the greataxe. Non-rogue Strikers love their bastard swords, although that's a little inaccurate for Warlocks who won't ever actually USE them... and Rogues love daggers. The extra chance to hit and deal SA damage well outweighs the lower damage when not SA'ing. If you wanted a sophisicated test where you are SA'ing some X% of the time... well, it wouldn't be impossible but I'm not doing it now.

infocynic said:

Well, this should at least make keterys somewhat happy. Doesn't consider multiple [W] yet. That was troubling me too much.

I bumped Dagger prof. to +4 even though it really only is a 3, it's not a competitive choice for a non-rogue, and I really didn't want to build the extra case for it. I allow you to specify several types of different attacks each with avg bonus damage, max bonus damage, miss damage (1H) and miss damage (2H). No edge cases for hammer rhythm yet, but this is really based on a first-level comparison so far. I accounted for no striker bonus (just a +4 from ability), Hunter's Quarry / Warlock's Curse, HQ with Lethal Hunter, Sneak attack, and Sneak Attack w/backstabber.

Results: Non-strikers still love the greataxe. Non-rogue Strikers love their bastard swords, although that's a little inaccurate for Warlocks who won't ever actually USE them... and Rogues love daggers. The extra chance to hit and deal SA damage well outweighs the lower damage when not SA'ing. If you wanted a sophisicated test where you are SA'ing some X% of the time... well, it wouldn't be impossible but I'm not doing it now.

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Allright! Looks awesome.

But it keeps pointing out that, with the exception of the Bastard Sword, the Superior weapons just reek.

I am thinking of the following changes to Superior weapons.

Bastard Sword. Prof goes to +4. No other changes.
Katar. Prof goes to +4. Increase damage to 1d6 + 1. Make this weapon usable by rogues as an alternative to Dagger in all abilities (including sneak attack) except where the dagger is thrown.
Rapier. Prof goes to +4. Increase damage to 1d8+1.
Spiked Chain. Prof goes to +4. No other changes.
Shurkien. Prof goes to +4. Increase damage to 1d4+2.

Also, add High Crit to Greatsword.

What do you guys think? Otherwise, I would *never* take a Superior weapon except Bastard Sword.

-- Hirahito

Edit: Got my forums mixed up.

eloquentaction said:

Allright! Looks awesome.

But it keeps pointing out that, with the exception of the Bastard Sword, the Superior weapons just reek.

I am thinking of the following changes to Superior weapons.

Bastard Sword. Prof goes to +4. No other changes.
Katar. Prof goes to +4. Increase damage to 1d6 + 1. Make this weapon usable by rogues as an alternative to Dagger in all abilities (including sneak attack) except where the dagger is thrown.
Rapier. Prof goes to +4. Increase damage to 1d8+1.
Spiked Chain. Prof goes to +4. No other changes.
Shurkien. Prof goes to +4. Increase damage to 1d4+2.

Also, add High Crit to Greatsword.

What do you guys think? Otherwise, I would *never* take a Superior weapon except Bastard Sword.

-- Hirahito

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Well, rapiers allow rogues to get use all of their rogues powers with a d8 weapon instead of a d6, so that seems as good as the bastard sword to me.

For the others, I wouldn't make the weapons so binary, its either this or that. Give the weapons a power to give you a gradient.

For example, with the Spiked Chain:

Threatening Stance
Encounter * Minor Action
Special: Must be weilding a spiked chain to use this power.
Effect: You gain the threatening reach ability until the end of your next turn.

keterys said:

The spreadsheet (unnaturally) favors low proficiency over high because it ignores bonus damage entirely. Especially if you're a striker that damage can be sizable, but it's not hard to throw in a big damage bonus and see that the +3 weapons scale better the more bonus damage you have on the spreadsheet (toss in like a +20 and just drag it down to see the greatsword as better than the greataxe for instance)

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So out of all the strikers, who can wield a greatsword?

Stalker0 said:

Well, rapiers allow rogues to get use all of their rogues powers with a d8 weapon instead of a d6, so that seems as good as the bastard sword to me.

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Which really isn't that great. It can be good if you choose lots of powers with multi-die damage, but regardless, you're losing the +1 dagger bonus in all of that, so like keterys says, it depends on whether raw damage is more important to you than landing effects.

So, to actually clarify the odds:
Assume a character is doing nW + B, and attacks 20 times, rolling the values 1 through 20. Also, assume hit chance for a +2 proficiency weapon is 50%, and that damage is average (i.e. 5.5 for a d10, 6.5 for a d12, 7 for 2d6).

Without Improved Critical:
Greataxe: 70.5n + 10B + 6.5t (t = tier)
Greatsword: 65n + 11B
Greatsword, d12: 77n + 11B
Maul: 75n + 10B
D12 greatsword > Maul, always.
D12 greatsword > Greataxe if 6.5n+B > 6.5t, which is almost always true.
Greataxe > Maul if 6.5t > 4.5n, which is likely but marginal.
Greataxe > Greatsword if 5.5n + 6.5t > B, which almost certainly true.
Maul > Greatsword if 10n > B, which is very likely.

Adding feats, at T3:
Greataxe (improved crit): 76n + 10B + 39
Greatsword (improved crit): 70.5n + 11B
Greatsword, d12 (improved crit): 82.5n + 11B
Maul (improved crit, hammer rhythm): 80n + 10B + 40 (con 19)
D12 greatsword > Maul if 2.5n+B > 40, which is unlikely.
D12 greatsword > Greataxe if 6.5n + B > 39, which is possible.
Greataxe > Maul if 4n+40 > 39, which is never true.
Greataxe > Greatsword if 5.5n + 39 > B, which almost certainly true.
Maul > Greatsword if 9.5n + 40 > B, which is almost certainly true.

The maul pretty clearly wins here, because of hammer rhythm. However:

• Blade opportunist is a nice feat
• Damage doesn't matter vs minions.
• Heavy blade opportunist is also a nice feat
• Spending stat bumps on Con doesn't improve any of your defenses. Spending stat bumps on Dex improves your Reflex and Initiative.

I read thru part of this thread before going to work and gen'd up my own spreadsheet over lunch at my desk to play with the numbers. Seems I went a different route then you guys are. But maybe mine will still be useful to the discussion or show something different.

I decided to look at only the weapons themselves and not count in powers or character stats at all. I figured if a weapon showed itself to be superior all on it's own then player specific modifiers would only make it more so. I, of course, was wrong in this assumption. Or maybe not- by simply adding in a user input for bonuses to-hit and damage I quickly saw how it changed the rankings. Now I think it might be an accurate, useful tool.

Here's what I did. My spreadsheet tries to calculate a weapon's TRUE damage potential accounting for base damage, average damage, criticals and proficiency bonus. I calculated my so-called "TRUE value" by figuring the weapon's average basic and critical damage, then applied this against Armor Class 10 - 20 as modified by the percentage chance to actually hit that AC. I then averaged the adjusted damage for the entire AC range. I believe this gives a good idea of the weapon's damage output over time and multiple attacks. Keep in mind that it accounts for a higher 'damage potential' due to an increased chance to hit.

This 'TRUE value' is the red (pink) column in the spreadsheet. You can see all the other numbers that affect this value in the rest of the columns. And I've tried to explain everything in the comments at the top of the columns as well.

Anyway, it's late (for me) so I'm slipping out my "excel-fu" zone and loosing track of how this thing worked well enough to explain it anymore. So I'll go ahead and post it then respond to any questions/comments in the morning.

One last thing though- it was interesting to find that WOTC apparently didn't just "screw up the weapons" as I had originally thought when I got 4E. It appears that a lot of thought went into tweaking the numbers to make it balance out. I still think the greatsword should outshine the maul and flail, but I haven't figured out how to do it without making it the uber-weapon again. My table has entries for a high-crit and a d12 greatsword to show the diferences.

One other last thing- this spreadsheet doesn't give any weighted values to any weapon properties like reach and such, or other considerations like proficiency feats. I figured the "worth" of such things depends on the individual player and the particular character build.

Thank A.J. - wow, Hammer Rhythm made an even bigger splash than I had realized. I thought it might catch it up to Greataxe, but didn't realize it would shoot straight past.

P.S. Your greataxe > maul line is reversed, fwiw (swap 39)