Forked Thread: from MM2: More fluff?--> The plane next door.

Forked from: MM2: More fluff?

Rechan said:

I found the Shards odd. I mean, "WHEN EVIL AND THE ELEMENTAL CHAOS MEET" ... and then they give you a level 4 one. How the heck do level 4 PCs come in contact with something from the elemental chaos and the abyss rolling around together?

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I forked this to not derail discussion over there, but this is something that has really struck me with 4E so far. the planes next door (if they are indeed that far away)

I am going through the 4E WOTC adventure path and it seems you cna hardly turn around a corner without running into a portal to the Shadowfell, or some domain on the Astral Sea. It seems like any semi-competant hack can make his fortress around a planer breach these days. Is anyone else noticing this, and if so, do you think it is a positive or negative development?

I think it's intentional, and, overall, positive.

The idea seems to be: "Why have all these neat planes if no one ever gets to go there?"

The 4e MotP had big cities -- adventuring bases -- in the Shadowfell, the Feywild, and the Astral Sea (and Sigil).

While by and large you probably won't be going to the Abyss at level 4, things from the Abyss are coming to YOU from the get-go.

It also lets the designers pay less attention to ecologies and quiets down the more simulationist arguments. "It's another plane, they can be WEIRD!"

Yeah, the planar stuff is positive. I'm glad we're seeing a lot of it, even if it's mostly in the realm of "stuff the DM can pull monsters out of that the PC's can't do anything useful with."

It's not that I think that low level PCs shouldn't be plane hopping or stumbling into a portal to the Shadowfell. I actually like that; getting to the Shadowfell or Feywild is fairly easy - if you know what you're doing (or, perhaps if you don't).

I made the observation for one reason:

Unlike say, demons or undead, where there are multiple for each tier of play, the vast majority of the statted denizens of the Elemental Chaos is placed at upper Paragon through Epic.

So it hurts my brain when I see natives to the EC who are 4th level.

Why? Okay, let's assume your PCs encounter them. So they're close to the EC. They step out into the Elemental Chaos, run into the 3 monsters that are 4th level, and walk out of that area... they get obliterated by a Storm Titan or a Ifriit.

It's like sending 1st level PCs to kill rats in Vecna's basement.

So it just feels so out of place to have the lion's share at such a high level, then put something there that's the equivalent of small dogs. If the PCs come in contact with one, they're either outclassing the dogs, or they're majorly outclassed by the other stuff.

Kamikaze Midget said:

It also lets the designers pay less attention to ecologies and quiets down the more simulationist arguments. "It's another plane, they can be WEIRD!"

Yeah, the planar stuff is positive. I'm glad we're seeing a lot of it, even if it's mostly in the realm of "stuff the DM can pull monsters out of that the PC's can't do anything useful with."

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Except I don't see anything all that weird or fantastic about WotC's planar material for the most part. They've come out and said that things can't be too weird or too difficult, because it would be hard to adventure in, and therefore shouldn't exist (*sniff* I miss you quasielemental plane of vacuum in all your "antithesis of fun" glory).

The whole 4e cosmology seems entirely artificial to me, in that it's set of for tiers of play, with the intention to adventure in one place in one stretch of levels, then another place in another set of levels, etc. It's like various planes aren't supposed to exist till you're high enough level to unlock the next place on the map.

That's my impression of the 4e material so far as it concerns the planes. Versus say the more classical Planescape vision which went out of its way to open up the planes, all of them, to any stretch of levels, but which was very open that many of them were blatantly hostile or antithetical to non-natives, and you would probably die if you didn't prepare yourself properly. There was no hand-holding, just a sense of vast wonder at the infinite, weird environments out there to explore.

Rechan said:

Why? Okay, let's assume your PCs encounter them. So they're close to the EC. They step out into the Elemental Chaos, run into the 3 monsters that are 4th level, and walk out of that area... they get obliterated by a Storm Titan or a Ifriit.

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I totally understand the point you are trying to make, but just because hte PCs encounter a 4th level beast of the Elemental Chaos doesn't necessarily mean that the EC is nearby.

Maybe it was summoned? Maybe it has been in the "prime" (or whatever they are calling it now. ) for a few months or even a year or more.

Mostly I like that the Shadowfell and Feywild are close. The EC needs to take a bit more work to get to than a 4th leveler can muster up.

catsclaw227 said:

I totally understand the point you are trying to make, but just because hte PCs encounter a 4th level beast of the Elemental Chaos doesn't necessarily mean that the EC is nearby.

Maybe it was summoned? Maybe it has been in the "prime" (or whatever they are calling it now. ) for a few months or even a year or more.

Mostly I like that the Shadowfell and Feywild are close. The EC needs to take a bit more work to get to than a 4th leveler can muster up.

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I am suddenly reminded of Earthdawn and how powerful Demons have a harder time than less powerful Demons in a world with low mana levels. Weaker creatures have an easier time to slip through into the material plane. (And the opposite is true for creatures from the material plane.)

The whole 4e cosmology seems entirely artificial to me, in that it's set of for tiers of play, with the intention to adventure in one place in one stretch of levels, then another place in another set of levels, etc. It's like various planes aren't supposed to exist till you're high enough level to unlock the next place on the map.

That's my impression of the 4e material so far as it concerns the planes. Versus say the more classical Planescape vision which went out of its way to open up the planes, all of them, to any stretch of levels, but which was very open that many of them were blatantly hostile or antithetical to non-natives, and you would probably die if you didn't prepare yourself properly. There was no hand-holding, just a sense of vast wonder at the infinite, weird environments out there to explore.

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Well, that might have been the impression, but it just works in one direction - the PCs getting out. Monsters can get in earlier.

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Except I don't see anything all that weird or fantastic about WotC's planar material for the most part. They've come out and said that things can't be too weird or too difficult, because it would be hard to adventure in, and therefore shouldn't exist (*sniff* I miss you quasielemental plane of vacuum in all your "antithesis of fun" glory).

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Mostly talkin' about the monsters, there. You can have weirder, more exotic, less rational things when they're not from the world you know.

Overall, making the planes easier to adventure in is a positive in my eyes, and I think there's still plenty of room for the Plane of Vacuum if you want it. No, WotC will not be covering it, but ah well. It's not like there's a whole lot of adventure potential satisfied there that isn't also satisfied in any other "you go there, you die" plane.

The whole 4e cosmology seems entirely artificial to me, in that it's set of for tiers of play, with the intention to adventure in one place in one stretch of levels, then another place in another set of levels, etc. It's like various planes aren't supposed to exist till you're high enough level to unlock the next place on the map.

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Clearly, they do, though (the quote at the top of the thread asks how PC's will encounter shards of elemental evil at level 4!). Artificial may be, but their influence is clearly there across tiers.

That's my impression of the 4e material so far as it concerns the planes. Versus say the more classical Planescape vision which went out of its way to open up the planes, all of them, to any stretch of levels, but which was very open that many of them were blatantly hostile or antithetical to non-natives, and you would probably die if you didn't prepare yourself properly. There was no hand-holding, just a sense of vast wonder at the infinite, weird environments out there to explore.

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I think the "planes are there to adventure in" rule of thumb means that more players will see more of the multiverse than was common in 3e. There's still places you can't get to and survive normally, really (the Far Realm, for the most obvious example; various Abyssal layers for another), but the baseline is bigger, which makes the job of planar adventuring easier without any sort of special bottleneck (we need a ritual to survive our destination!).

Shemeska said:

The whole 4e cosmology seems entirely artificial to me, in that it's set of for tiers of play, with the intention to adventure in one place in one stretch of levels, then another place in another set of levels, etc. It's like various planes aren't supposed to exist till you're high enough level to unlock the next place on the map.

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That explains why extraplanar fey and shadow creatures extend from the very bottom of level 1 to elites and solos at level 28, I suppose (and we still haven't seen the real powers of the Feywild, like the Summer Queen and her nobles). Why extraplanar elemental beings extend from the very bottom of level 1 to solo primordial lords at level 35. Why devils extend from level 3 through level 28, and even angels--the direct servants of the gods--are available from level 7 on up.

Oh, wait.

For my money, the planar system of 4e feels a lot more like real world mythological planar structure than previous editions did. Celtic myth is rife with encounters with members of the "Other World" (Feywild in D&D terms). To cross over, all you had to do was be in the right place at the right time. I like that the Feywild and Shadowfell are close like that.

Likewise, the Astral Sea and Primordial Chaos feel a little bit more distant. It's like we have a good mash of Judeo-Christian, Greek, and Celtic mythology powering our plans. Heaven, Hell, the Other World, and Tartarus all in play. And out there, somewhere, waiting to eat your brains are Lovecraftian monsters to horrible to speak of.

Yeah, much better and more organic than the forced symmetry of the Great Wheel. (Sorry, Shem.)