Multiple Hiders, Multiple Spotters

I'm wondering how some of the more experienced DMs (esp., PirateCat, Caliban) handle the situation of a group of characters trying to Hide from a group of characters trying to Spot them. (Or any other similary opposed check: Move Sliently/Listen, hide an item/Search, etc.)

Let's assume that everyone on both sides makes a skill check (which I'm sure is the book rule by default). Without going into the mathematics of it, since all you need is any Spotter check to beat any Hider check, with just a few people on each side, it becomes dreadfully unlikely that the Hiders will go undetected.

It seems like what might be best is to only use the worst Hider's skill against the best Spotter's skill -- but such a method is only even suggested in the books specifically for the "Listen" skill (PH p. 71).

Do you guys routinely let everyone have a separate chance at Spotting enemies (basically giving the Hiders away for free, statistically)? Do you make separate checks for all the Hiders, in addition? Is there anything in the books that I'm missing for a methodology to this?

If this is the beginning of an encounter, use the rules in the DMG on pages 59-60.

If not, remember the -1 per 10 feet of distance for the spot checks.

I roll a hide for each hider. If it's a set up ambush they each might get a +2 circumstance bonus if they all have extra time to set up.

Then each spoter gets a roll. I roll for NPCs, but I allow the PCs to make their own rolls. If my PCs don't roll well, the role play their character not seeing anything. So, I don't have to worry about giving away an ambush through meta gaming.

I would use the one spot check per spotter vs. one hide check per hider setup. Sure, some people may notice some others, but that just shows the risks involved in trying to set up an ambush in full plate. Besides, the rogue is still more than likely going to be missed, and he's the one who'll do the most damage in that scenario anyway.

And as Dr. Zoom noted, the -1 per 10' can certainly make a big the difference.

If they have the time...

I allow hiders to take 20 on their hide check. This basically reflects the fact that they're studying the ambush location, finding the best rocks to duck behind, etc. It makes sense logically (don't know if the rules support it, though). And it allows for hiders to actually succeed against the 4 or 5 spot checks they're usually up against.

dcollins said:

I'm wondering how some of the more experienced DMs (esp., PirateCat, Caliban) handle the situation of a group of characters trying to Hide from a group of characters trying to Spot them. (Or any other similary opposed check: Move Sliently/Listen, hide an item/Search, etc.)
...
Do you guys routinely let everyone have a separate chance at Spotting enemies (basically giving the Hiders away for free, statistically)? Do you make separate checks for all the Hiders, in addition? Is there anything in the books that I'm missing for a methodology to this?

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Well, I'm not either, and I've been fortunate enough to avoid having to deal with the issue so far, but here are some thinking points :

1) Thanks to PC communication, all you really need to check is the best spot versus each of the individual hides; depending on how those compare the spotters may only be aware of a subset of the hiders (or even none of them). The ambiguity here is this : is a single spotted hider part of an ambush, or just a coward? Two? Three? Of course, if your characters are typically blood-thirsty it may not matter.

2) Depending on how "realistic" you want to get, you may only allow a spotter to attack those hiders he is personally aware of. Bob the Super-ranger may know that there are 5 orcs hiding in the bushes (an exactly where they are), but Bill the Brute (who completely blew his pitiful spot check) is just going to stand there clueless - probably not surprised (due to Bob's shouted warning) but not knowing where to attack.

3) If you want group-level hide and spot checks, I'd suggest liberal use of the "Aid Another" rules, as well as the large group modifiers (either from Track or Listen). For the spotters, I'd make sure that you only include those characters in the "spotting" group who are flankers/point-men for the group. For the hiders, you'll probably want to put some for of limit on the "Aid Another" benefit.

Re: Re: Multiple Hiders, Multiple Spotters

Some okay suggestions above... one assumption I'd like to get rid of:

I roll a hide for each hider. If it's a set up ambush they each might get a +2 circumstance bonus if they all have extra time to set up. Then each spoter gets a roll. I roll for NPCs, but I allow the PCs to make their own rolls. If my PCs don't roll well, the role play their character not seeing anything. So, I don't have to worry about giving away an ambush through meta gaming.

Click to expand...

I would use the one spot check per spotter vs. one hide check per hider setup. Sure, some people may notice some others, but that just shows the risks involved in trying to set up an ambush in full plate. Besides, the rogue is still more than likely going to be missed, and he's the one who'll do the most damage in that scenario anyway.

Click to expand...

2) Depending on how "realistic" you want to get, you may only allow a spotter to attack those hiders he is personally aware of. Bob the Super-ranger may know that there are 5 orcs hiding in the bushes (an exactly where they are), but Bill the Brute (who completely blew his pitiful spot check) is just going to stand there clueless - probably not surprised (due to Bob's shouted warning) but not knowing where to attack.

Click to expand...

Frankly, I wasn't even thinking about any kind of ambush (combat will occur, how does it start?) situation. I was thinking where one group is entirely trying to avoid another -- getting into a valley, avoiding a patrol, sneaking into town before the cry is raised and the gates shut... situations where one success is a determining factor, not that some ambushers will receive bonuses while others won't. In these cases, statistically, the "everyone rolls" method is WAY too biased towards the Spotters.

Roll once for the hiders and once for the spotters and apply individual skill mods.

Roll initiative and skip the turn of every spotter who failed to spot anyone during the surprise round.

After the surprise round everyone is aware of everyone else. (unless some unspotted hider stays hidden)

I am not an experienced DM (I never mastered a "real" Dungeons & Dragons Game, but perhaps I will do it...), but that`s the way how I do this.

If the spotters work together to spot someone, use the Aid Another Option. (The weaker ones have to beat a DC of 10, to give the best one a +2 bonus for each succesful ally).

Each of the "Hiders" makes his own move silently / hide checks.

Now compare the result of the "primary" spotter with each hide result. (roll just once for the spotter).

If it is an "avoiding" situation, still roll only once, and than add the range modifiers for each round seperately. So you can still build up tension. (The first 6 seconds nobody seems to be awary of you. Now you come closer. Still no one looking at you. You reach the nearest point... Suddenly one of the patrol men shouts in the direction of Bob, The Full Plate Fighter: "Freeze!")

But you might also wish to roll for each round, if you think rolling dice can even build up a greater tension

Mustrum Ridcully

dcollins - I think you're starting from an incorrect assumption - that it should be possible for an entire party to sneak in past patrols to the town. Why do they have patrols after all? To keep people from doing exactly what you're trying to do.

Send in the monk, ranger, and rogue, they'll make it no problem (unless those patrols have some seriously good spot checks). The wizard would probably be ok if he can fly and be invisible. The real trouble are guys like the cleric and fighter who are pretty much screwed without some outside magical aid.

The cleric and the fighter *shouldn't* be able to sneak into the town. That's one of their drawbacks, they're just plain not sneaky (though there may be a cleric spell that could help out, I'm not that well versed in cleric spells).

So... yeah, those guys with crappy hide checks are going to be seen by the guys with the good spot checks... that's the way the system is supposed to work!

However, if your party is smart, they might even be able to sneak in that 10 dex fighter in full plate. How? Planning! Have your sneaky members scout out the patrol rounds and then move in through the holes in the pattern. Remember the -1 for every 10 foot rule, and remember that if you have 100% concealment, you don't need to hide In dense woods, that could mean as little as 30 feet between you and the spotter.

So, yeah, just running in and relying on the figher's -6 hide check is probably never going to work. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to get them in there.

Other possibilities: take out the patrols - either knock them out, kill them, bribe them, or charm them.

-The Souljourner