Multiple Hiders, Multiple Spotters

[FANGO]

Souljourner makes some good points, but I'd also like to add to them.

There is a very good reason that a group of spotters has a good chance of finding a group of hiders (especially if those hiders are moving around). Why do you think scouts go out one at a time, rather than in huge groups? Or that thieves...burglars and such, or at least the ones that rely on not being seen (as opposed to the ones that wait until the place is empty and just break in)...go in alone, rather than in huge groups? It's a whole lot easier to spot multiple people, and even if all of the members of the group are skilled, there are often only so many hiding places, or someone will make a mistake, or it will be easier to see the mass of moving things rather than the one small moving thing, and so on. And of course, when you're talking about people who have absolutely no idea how to hide (i.e. the fighter with no ranks in it, and a low dex and wearing full plate), then this problem gets even worse. This happens a lot in my party, where I am often the one to play the rogue...I usually try to go ahead alone (sometimes everyone else decides to come with, ruining the idea) because there is too much liability associated with being a large (or even small) group trying to hide from people whose sole purpose is to find you. So it should be nigh impossible for a group to hide from a group of spotters in most cases (for ambush-type situations, however, it's sometimes advantageous to have multiple hiders, because then there can be communication between all the various hiders in order to find the best hiding spots and such, and they can point out each others mistakes...but this only applies to when the hiders are staying put and finding very good hiding places and such...I would probably treat it like the take 20 idea that was brought up earlier, or maybe give a hefty circumstance bonus for good hiding places)

 

[Shard O'Glase]

How we've handled it is by sending the scout forward, who basically never gets caught since virtually no one has spot/listen as class skills. He/she then gives the all clear signal, and everyone else runs across the area into town/valley etc. If there isn't an appropriate time for an all clear signal, not avoiding a patrol, but getting through guarded gates, then the rogue sneaks in and causes a distraction of some kind. In situation one the rogue is making spot checks and listen checks, if he succeeds then the party can cross the area without anyone rolling a spot or listen since they aren't there to see them. In situation two the rogue describes making a distraciton, and based on things like the size of the distraction will determine the penalty the guards have to their spot listen checks. A successful bluff check v the guard with highest sense motive gives you a +2 to this penalty to the guards check, the level of profesioanlism gives the guards a bonus to avoid such penalties.

Random patrols in a valley that you are trying to avoid, asuming your scout hasn't steered you around them. Unless the DM really wants the party to get caught he can and should describe the area and include things like cover and concealment such as heavy bushes. If the players react quickly enough let them get to the cover/concealment and give them a large enough bonus from it for them to be able to easily hide behind it. How I've done it is describe the area with usually multiple likely options heavy bushes to your left, a downslope to the right, and a heavily shadowed overhang in front of you. The speed in which the players decide what they are doing gives them a bonus or penalty, heck if they futz around enough they are still standing in the open when the patrol comes up on them, and which place they hide in gives them certain bonuses.

Of course if the party blew their listen/spot checks, they have no time to do what I'm talking about. Which is why its good to keep at least one moderetly skilled indivdual with the party.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The way that I run it:

If you are trying to sneak past some sentries, they are assumed to be "taking 10", and thus the DC to sneak past them is 10+ their skill rank. This amounts to beating the highest level spotter there. Simple and quick to adjudicate.

If the sentries are alerted and they are actively trying to spot intruders, then I roll spot checks for all of them (opposing the hide checks of the sneakers)

Most of the time sentries are not particularly expecting trouble, and it depends upon their general alertness. IMO.

Cheers

 

[Thanee]

Everyone gets to roll (hide and spot respectively, depending on terrain, the hide checks will have some bonuses, of course), and chances are that someone will notice something, unless there are only expert ambushers around. Surprise round starts immediately after the spot checks and whoever noticed something among the targets can act (against whomever he spotted or who revealed himself until his initiative) as well as all ambushers, of course.

Bye
Thanee

 

[BlindKobold]

Keep in mind too, that Hide can be re-tried if the the bad guys aren't around yet. This allows PCs to call out to their friends and ask if they can be seen... think of hiding-go-seek.

PC 1: "Can you see me?"
PC 2: "Yup"
PC 1: "Can you see me now?"
PC 2: "Yup"
PC 1: "What about now?"
PC 2: "Yup"
PC 1: "Can you STILL see me?"
PC 2: "Yup"
PC 1: "Dammit... come over here and throw some leaves on me or something!"

 

[dcollins]

Send in the monk, ranger, and rogue, they'll make it no problem (unless those patrols have some seriously good spot checks).

I don't think that you realize how statistically biased the "everyone rolls by default" rule is in favor of the spotters.

Even sending in just a monk, ranger and rogue, with moderately good Hide checks, against a small group of watchers, they have a very low chance of not being seen. That's exactly the problem I'm talking about.

Let's say we write a computer program simulating 10,000 tests of the following:
- A sneaking group of one each 3rd-level Monk, Ranger, and Rogue, who have each put maximum ranks into Hide (bonuses of +7, +8, +8, as per the Elite NPCs on DMG p. 53-55).
- A watch group of just 6 guards War1 and a leader War3 with standard Fighter abilities and zero ranks in Spot (ability modifer +1; average patrol size as per DMG p. 135).
- The sneakers come no closer than 50 feet from the guards (distance modifier -5 as per PH p. 74).
- Only one set of checks is made at the closest approach (not every round, as some of have suggested above).

Question: What's the chance of these Spotters with no ranks in their skill detecting the Hiders with maximum ranks in their skill?
Answer: Over 66% (two-thirds of the time).

( Pascal code for this simulation available for those who wish to double-check it, here: www.superdan.net/download/spot.pas )

 

[Pielorinho]

Dcollins, one potential solution is to let the hiders take 10 on their rolls.

In your example, if they do so, the lowest hiding score will be 17. And the highest spot score will be 16 (20 +1 skill -5 distance). So as long as they keep their distance, they won't be spotted.

But let's give the guards each a +3 in spot, just to be friendly to them. Assuming that the hiders take 10, how does that affect the odds? (in this case, if any of the guards score a 19 or 20 on their check, they'll see the hiders).

Daniel

 

[Dr. Zoom]

If you are trying to sneak a group of adventurers into a town past its guards thru a gate using only hide skills, you should always fail. You need more than just hide skills for this.

If you want to avoid being spotted by sentries from a distance, then use the rules in the DMG. For example, in a light forest terrain at about 100 feet, the sentries need to roll very high to have any chance of spotting you. Their spot DC is 25 + your hide skill. Only go in groups of 5 or less to avoid further penalties, and do it at night, for at least a +5 to that spot DC. Actually it is pretty easy to sneak past guards in those conditions. But you cannot do it if you are right in front of their noses.

 

[dcollins]

Dcollins, one potential solution is to let the hiders take 10 on their rolls.

In your example, if they do so, the lowest hiding score will be 17. And the highest spot score will be 16 (20 +1 skill -5 distance). So as long as they keep their distance, they won't be spotted.

But let's give the guards each a +3 in spot, just to be friendly to them. Assuming that the hiders take 10, how does that affect the odds? (in this case, if any of the guards score a 19 or 20 on their check, they'll see the hiders).

Yes, having the Hiders take 10 is advantageous. The result of your scenario is that the Hiders are discovered only a bit more than 52% of the time. [(1 - (1 - N)^7), where N=10%, each guard's individual chance of Spotting.]

My main beef is something like this: let's say 4 people on each side with equal Hide & Spot ranks all around. They come no closer than 50 feet from each other. Chance of being discovered: about 93%. (With Hiders taking 10: about 76%.)

 

[GuardianLurker]

My main beef is something like this:...

Yep. Understood.

So what made the Aid Another abstraction (that some have offered) inadequate? '