Why are Warforged so bad?

Glyfair

Explorer
Wild Gazebo said:
As well, I have never considered them robots--or even similar to robots. I consider them golems whose paths have crossed with the spark of life rather than animation. In fact, when the term 'steam punk' or 'higher technology' get applied to Eberron I wonder...I wonder what book they are reading.

I'll wager a large percentage with this opinion haven't read the book. A large percentage of the rest gathered their opinion from the advance information, formed their view, and never got past it. Others are just mixing terms up (someone once described it well as "magic as industry" rather than "magic as technology").

Personally, I like the story elements warforged can bring to a setting. A recently referenced an excellent Dungeon adventure, "Steel Shadows," that focuses on warforged. Much of the feel of this adventure deals with the prejudices that people in the campaign world have towards warforged. This is a running theme in Eberron (some of the other races have to deal with it, especially changelings and shifters).
 

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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Most arguments stem upon some conceived notion upon how a DM prepares a challenge for a party. I hardly think one or two PCs with immunities or hinderences ruin an adventure path or obstacle.

It can, and quite easily. You have to take the Warforged into account, you can't just throw them into anything and expect them to work as well as any other race. They're a special exception to rules. They have to sit at the forefront of your mind.

Fer'instance, consider an adventure on a sailing ship that is raided by pirates, where a big fight is to take place on the rigging of the ship, with Balance checks and Trip attempts and Bull Rushes -- big, epic, ship-top battle, everyone's affraid of falling into the water below...

Well, except the Warforged. Knock him into the briney deep? "*sigh* I walk back to shore and wait for them to pick me up." Or at best "I'm making a few swim checks, but this armor check penalty and weight problem means that I can't actually make any of them, so I guess I'm sinking to the bottom of the ocean where, uhm, maybe I'll die of pressure?"

Suddenly, the entire adventure is derailed while you deal with what happens to the warforged at the bottom of the ocean. One character, one player, cannot enjoy the dynamic ship-based adventure like everyone else. Knock anyone else into the water, and it's a sign of tension, of building drama. The fighter has to take off his armor. The wizard has to make those difficult Swim checks. Maybe they both have to deal with swimming pirates. Goodness gracious me, will they survive? With the Warforged, you better have a back-up plan for when he's just taking a stroll among the coral!

Or consider an adventure into the steamy jungles where Yuan-ti assassins lurk, their poisoned blades piercing deep into the viens of those whose empire they wish to dominate. The entire party is on edge. The cleric has prepared a battery of anti-poison spells. The dwarf takes point. They are struck! Oh noes! Crits and Con damage and Secondary Damage Oh My! Can the dwarf keep rolling lucky? What happens if the cleric runs out of spells? Aiee! Stay away from the sorcerer!

vs. having the Warforged in the game...suddenly, you've got someone who faces virtually no danger from this combat whatsoever. Again, you have a bored player who just walks around and tries to hit things as well as possible. What strategy? What needs he to fear from these assasssins? He's immune to their poison, he's got protection from their crits, he's got DR, so blowdarts are no danger...he's a walking hulk! He's powerful! And you went and had this cult be the main enemy for the adventure, planned out most of the encounters with these guys, and this one character is going to breeze through it like nothing.

Or consider a party of limited players. One person wants to play a warforged. Who gets stuck with Artificer Duty? Who's destiny is it to spend his time not calling down destruction from heaven, ripping apart space-time, becoming one with the shadows, or flashing blades as fast as light, but as the healer and gold-suck-pocket. What if there's only three party members?

Having Warforged changes the way you need to play and think about the game in a way that Shifters and Changelings (for instance) do not.

If half the people are saying he's too weak and half the people are saying he's too powerful, that's not a sign that he's well balanced. That's a sign that he's extreme, he's a violation, he raises red flags on both sides. In some circumstances he's unstopable. In others, he's helpless. This isn't good game design. This is "flaws and benefits" all over again. This is the same problem that afflicts most high LA monster races, but at a lower level so it's less noticable. It's Paper Tiger Syndrome, but when the difference between the mightiest and the weakest members of the party is something like 8 hp, it's not game-breaking. And you can take it into account.

I don't want to have to derail my game for an underwater adventure just because the warforged tripped and fell off the rig, nor do I care to fudge the tactics of the enemy and have them not try the smartest tactic for the situation.

A recently referenced an excellent Dungeon adventure, "Steel Shadows," that focuses on warforged. Much of the feel of this adventure deals with the prejudices that people in the campaign world have towards warforged. This is a running theme in Eberron (some of the other races have to deal with it, especially changelings and shifters).

And here's my other problem: they hog the spotlight. To a certain extent it's expected, but where's the adventure that focueses on the prejudices that people in the campaign world have to gnomes? Or goblins? Or flumphs?

Nope, it's warforged, because golem-men are the new pink. :mad:
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Kamikaze Midget said:
Fer'instance, consider an adventure on a sailing ship that is raided by pirates, where a big fight is to take place on the rigging of the ship, with Balance checks and Trip attempts and Bull Rushes -- big, epic, ship-top battle, everyone's affraid of falling into the water below...

Well, except the Warforged. Knock him into the briney deep? "*sigh* I walk back to shore and wait for them to pick me up." Or at best "I'm making a few swim checks, but this armor check penalty and weight problem means that I can't actually make any of them, so I guess I'm sinking to the bottom of the ocean where, uhm, maybe I'll die of pressure?"

Suddenly, the entire adventure is derailed while you deal with what happens to the warforged at the bottom of the ocean.
Then you, as a dm, should spend about 5 seconds thinking about consequences.

Regardless who falls into the water, they're probably out of the combat. If it's the fighter (or cleric...), they're probably dead - they simply can't get out of their armour fast enough. If it's the mage, then chances are he's making a new character if he doesn't want to play as a glorified peasant thanks to the death of his spellbook. If it's the warforged... at least he's not dead or permanently stuffed.
Or consider an adventure into the steamy jungles where Yuan-ti assassins lurk, their poisoned blades piercing deep into the viens of those whose empire they wish to dominate. The entire party is on edge. The cleric has prepared a battery of anti-poison spells. The dwarf takes point. They are struck! Oh noes! Crits and Con damage and Secondary Damage Oh My! Can the dwarf keep rolling lucky? What happens if the cleric runs out of spells? Aiee! Stay away from the sorcerer!
Wow. Your players are morons. Delay poison:second level cleric(and bard, and druid) spell. Makes all this a bit pointless, doesn't it?
vs. having the Warforged in the game...suddenly, you've got someone who faces virtually no danger from this combat whatsoever.
Someone with a fort save of +10 or so doesn't really have anything to fear either (unless you're using implausably expensive poisons - and why not just use things that target the forged in that case?), and in my experience that's pretty common.
Or consider a party of limited players. One person wants to play a warforged. Who gets stuck with Artificer Duty? Who's destiny is it to spend his time not calling down destruction from heaven, ripping apart space-time, becoming one with the shadows, or flashing blades as fast as light, but as the healer and gold-suck-pocket. What if there's only three party members?
Noone gets artificer duty, and the warforged doesn't heal unless he picks up the skills or spells to do it himself. As long as he knows that up front, then he's going to take care of it himself.

And frankly, if you think that an artificer is a healer and gold-suck-pocket and nothing else, then you've really not even looked at the ECS...
Having Warforged changes the way you need to play and think about the game in a way that Shifters and Changelings (for instance) do not.
Changelings? Those guys that can impersonate basically anyone? Someone who's immune to a couple of attack forms is more complex than the guy who derails the adventure by going off and infiltrating the bad-guy's place on his own? Yeah, right.
I don't want to have to derail my game for an underwater adventure just because the warforged tripped and fell off the rig, nor do I care to fudge the tactics of the enemy and have them not try the smartest tactic for the situation.
Which, and I'll say this again, will happen to the heavily armoured tank as well, except you just KILLED him... Which is a little bit more of a downer, and certainly a lot less fun than having to rescue the warforged from the bottom of the sea.
And here's my other problem: they hog the spotlight. To a certain extent it's expected, but where's the adventure that focueses on the prejudices that people in the campaign world have to gnomes? Or goblins? Or flumphs?
Eberron? Goblins are a semi-slave race. Virtually all of the "people look down on warforged" can be applied to goblins too. Gnomes have a bunch of plot hooks they can make use of - it just happens that opression isn't one of them. Flumphs - how about the fact that anyone who meets you pisses themselves laughing...
 

Andor

First Post
What, exactly, can a Warforged do, or be immune to that a midlevel Druid cannot?

A warforges immunities are unique to him only untill about 5th-7th level. At what level are these Yuan-ti attacking the party? At what level are the PCs fighting ships full of pirates without flight or shapeshifting? And the warforged immunities benefit him only. There is no dramatic tension if only 5 out of 6 PCs risk drowning? Death by poison? Asphyxiation? "Don't worry, Bob can drag all our corpses around for 3 weeks untill he finds a cleric to res us."

Do warforged change the equation? Yes, a little, at low levels. Do the reshaped the face of the game? No. Do they invalidate dwarves? What a bizzare idea. Do you have to like them? Of course not. But let's not have hysterics.

If you had to play a solo character in DnD I doubt you could do better than to play a Warforged Artificer. But any Cleric or Druid is at least his equal.
 

Wild Gazebo

Explorer
Um. Kamakazi, I think you're prejudices are showing. I was going to debunk each of your examples fairly thouroughly but I think Saeviomagy did an ok job...except I think most warriors could cut their armor off before they die...but still, the point stands.

I don't consider individual situations as derailments...and hardly consider a trap bypassed by one member of a party as a sucessful evasion. But...that's just me.
 

Bran Blackbyrd

Explorer
Well, rules aside, it's easy enough to change what warforged are all about. A neat twist would be that warforged actually have human(oid) souls bound to them. The group that created the warforged needed soldiers and weren't too picky about where to get them.
They discovered that binding a soul to a construct body created a ready-made warrior and that being bound to the construct prevented the soul from remembering who it once was. It wasn't that the warforged gained sentience over time, it was that in order to make the warforged perform more autonomously, their creators had to 'relax' the magicks which chained the soul to the body.
Discovery of this fact could raise some serious questions about the people that did it, and about how people treat warforged. Now they aren't just a smarter golem, they have human(oid) souls and the rights that come with it. This could lead to some interesting situations as certain warforged begin to have flashbacks to their life before being bound to their new body.
Maybe nobody knows about any of this until the party's warforged starts having strange flashbacks... Maybe he'll try and track down his living family members. Perhaps there are agents out there that will try to stop him.

Maybe in your campaign world it could just be a given that warforged are people whose souls are bound to constructs. It was good enough for Full Metal Alchemist...

I played, briefly, in a game where a player's 3rd or 4th level warforged got overwhelmed and incapacitated by a group of mind-controlled commoners. Commoners! He was outraged. I told him that the problem was, he was looking at the warforged like a walking, talking, steam locomotive; when in reality, they're more like walking, talking, metal-covered grandfather clocks.
 
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Gez

First Post
A few things people tend to forget: warforged have immunities compared to humanoids, yes, but they also have vulnerabilities.

Or should I complain about the humanoid's immunity to rust attacks? (Go on, sick a rust dragon on a party. Everyone will quiver in fear at the sight on that equipment destroyer+dragon combo, but the one who'll faint at this mere sight will be the warforged.)

Or maybe the humanoids' immunity to spells that specifically affect constructs, such as disable construct (beside, IMC, there are spells that existed before warforged where published that allow to take control of a construct and operate it like a puppet).

And the warforged must "waste" special feats just in order to take levels in some classes, most notably druid and monk.
 

Klaus

First Post
Warforged also make prime targets for Heat/Chill Metal.

As soon as you allow a Living Construct race in your campaign, you need to include stuff like the Repair spells, Disable Construct and other things. As well you should. If you have a half-orc with Orc Blood, but no "orc" items, what good is "Orc Blood"? Oh, yeah, none! ;)

My first knee-jerk reaction to warforged was to dislike 'em. Eventually I warmed up to them and now I think they're mighty cool.

As for the sailing combat or the poison expedition:
- Anyone who gets on a ship and doesn't consider ways of keeping from drowining is just asking to sink. In this case, the warforged character (who, mind you, may as well be a 2nd-level rogue with Mithril Body and a measly -4 on Swim checks before Str is counted) can still paddle the surface while trying to throw a grappling hook to the ship.

- The warforged doesn't have to worry about being poisoned, but if his companions die, he'll die as well. And so what is a viper can't poison him? A constrictor snake can still crush the timber from his innards. And hey, you have a race who is partly metal. Have him rust (treat as a disease).

And finally, Libris Mortis has a new type of poison, the necrotoxin, that affects undead. It isn't too hard to come up with a liquid dispel potion that affects constructs like poison.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
"Spellpunk" is also not a word when I think of Doc Savage, Raiders OTLA, or The Shadow - which is a genre I used in my games.

As for Warforged, We had one from 1st to 10th level in our Eberron game, and had no problems with its presence. As a DM, i in fact had even more fun, because I had a party member I could rip up, break, tear, fold, spindle, and multilate for dramatic purposes, and the party put him back together each time. :D
 

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