Why are Warforged so bad?
wingsandsword
Legend
Felon said:
Thus if you can't accept Warforged you never really can like Eberron, which is pretty much where I stand.
They never need to sleep, so it's pretty dang hard to ambush a party at low levels at night, as they're always on-watch and never tired. They don't need to eat or drink, which removes, again at low levels some plotting and planning for wilderness adventures. Not needing to breathe? It might not come up often, but it sure can short-circuit some adventures involving watery obstacles. They are never unarmored, so even if surprised at home they are always ready for battle. Not to mention that they are a type other than Humanoid.
From a mechanical standpoint, Warforged give bonuses that are very, very big at 1st level (nonhumanoid type, no need to sleep/breath/eat/drink, no fatigue, fortification), and may be greatly lesser at higher levels. They shouldn't be ECL +0. If you look at the designer interviews, they say outright that they intentionally made the new races +0 so that they could be used in any game, marketing trumped game design here.
From a flavor standpoint, Warforged are on the list of why I can't stand Eberron. Robotic PC's don't belong in fantasy as far as I'm concerned, they are so far from what I consider "D&D" that I might as well be playing Star Wars and just play a Droid PC (Sharn is D&D Coruscant, and both are derived from old 30's and 40's serials). As Marshall said, if you want to play an antisocial combat machine at ECL +0, Half Orc is there for you. Want a different take on it? Instead of half-breeds of Human and Orc, maybe they are the result of selective breeding and magical augmentation of humans to create a warrior race, but the "antisocial combat machine" niche is already filled in core rules at ECL +0.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
They won't break a game, but they're better than your average cup o' dwarf, they hog the spotlight, and they require awkward work-around mechanics to be scribed into the rules themselves. They are exceptions to the rules, and that's part of their appeal but also part of their problem.
They preclude certain types of campaigns. In a campaign focusing on poisonous jungle snakes as adversaries (the Yuan-ti) or focued on spreading plagues, or focused on marine adventures, or focused on environmental dangers and the risk of starvation, they are *grossly* overpowered. They are immune to the campaign's main threat. Effectively, this precludes these types of campaigns for Eberron, at least on any significant scale.
Add in the fact that everyone wants to be one and that they *require* certain class abilities to function and that they are the best thing for drama queens since Drow, and they're just too much trouble for too little benefit.
Are android-people cool? Absolutely. But they're the kind of cool that works great in fiction but not so well in a game format (read: they make better NPC's). Either that, or they should be changed from Living Constructs to Constructed Humanoids, thus grounding their rules in a more inherently vulnerable type, which the game is already structured to handle. We don't need to give them 1/2 healing. We should take away their various immunities and make them more firmly like the humanoids. OR, we should restructure the game from the ground up and make monster types less mighty with immunities. Guess which one I'm more a fan of Eberron doing?
They're not going to shatter the game world at all. But any game that takes them into account has to make SPECIAL COMPENSATIONS for them all over the place. Can't do this, have to do that, invincible here, pathetically vulnerable there...all so that no one will play dwarves IMC again? Pheh.
They're a cool idea, but to quote Jurassic Park: "they were so busy thinking about whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think about whether or not they should!"
They preclude certain types of campaigns. In a campaign focusing on poisonous jungle snakes as adversaries (the Yuan-ti) or focued on spreading plagues, or focused on marine adventures, or focused on environmental dangers and the risk of starvation, they are *grossly* overpowered. They are immune to the campaign's main threat. Effectively, this precludes these types of campaigns for Eberron, at least on any significant scale.
Add in the fact that everyone wants to be one and that they *require* certain class abilities to function and that they are the best thing for drama queens since Drow, and they're just too much trouble for too little benefit.
Are android-people cool? Absolutely. But they're the kind of cool that works great in fiction but not so well in a game format (read: they make better NPC's). Either that, or they should be changed from Living Constructs to Constructed Humanoids, thus grounding their rules in a more inherently vulnerable type, which the game is already structured to handle. We don't need to give them 1/2 healing. We should take away their various immunities and make them more firmly like the humanoids. OR, we should restructure the game from the ground up and make monster types less mighty with immunities. Guess which one I'm more a fan of Eberron doing?
They're not going to shatter the game world at all. But any game that takes them into account has to make SPECIAL COMPENSATIONS for them all over the place. Can't do this, have to do that, invincible here, pathetically vulnerable there...all so that no one will play dwarves IMC again? Pheh.
They're a cool idea, but to quote Jurassic Park: "they were so busy thinking about whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think about whether or not they should!"
IME, warforged work out pretty well. I've played a warforged barbarian and had a warforged artificer in a campaign that went from 3rd to 10th level.
Warforged do get lots of cool toys, but those abilities are passive in nature. A warforged fighter might be immune to poison gas, but the rest of the party still suffers its effects. A 1st-level warforged can get DR, but he does so at the cost of a feat. A non-warforged fighter, particularly a human or half-orc, has superior offensive abilities.
The real key, I think, is that warforged make it a bit harder on the DM. There are a lot of story elements that you have to worry about if a warforged is in the game. For instance, water stops being an effective barrier - the warforged can just walk through it. I've been thinking about this issue a lot. I think there are a number of mechanics that make it harder for a DM to create a fun story, and that's something that gets overlooked in design.
As I mentioned above, I didn't have any problems with the warforged as a DM. The artificer was more durable than the typical spellcaster, and since he didn't need to sleep he could spend a lot of time working on creating items. The Wisdom penalty turned out to be a big deal, owing to the malevolent AI that ended up infecting and controlling the warforged.
As a player, it was fun soaking up poisoned attacks, or wading through water, or staying up all night to guard the rest of the party. OTOH, there were times when I wished I had an extra feat or two to help me in a fight. In particular, the build I was going for (barbarian wielding two component weapons, battlefist and the sword arm one) was a bit harder to make. A human or half-orc two-weapon fighting barbarian with the same build could dish out more damage and hit more often, but I think my character's superior AC and warforged abilities balanced that. Overall, I felt like it was a fair trade.
Warforged do get lots of cool toys, but those abilities are passive in nature. A warforged fighter might be immune to poison gas, but the rest of the party still suffers its effects. A 1st-level warforged can get DR, but he does so at the cost of a feat. A non-warforged fighter, particularly a human or half-orc, has superior offensive abilities.
The real key, I think, is that warforged make it a bit harder on the DM. There are a lot of story elements that you have to worry about if a warforged is in the game. For instance, water stops being an effective barrier - the warforged can just walk through it. I've been thinking about this issue a lot. I think there are a number of mechanics that make it harder for a DM to create a fun story, and that's something that gets overlooked in design.
As I mentioned above, I didn't have any problems with the warforged as a DM. The artificer was more durable than the typical spellcaster, and since he didn't need to sleep he could spend a lot of time working on creating items. The Wisdom penalty turned out to be a big deal, owing to the malevolent AI that ended up infecting and controlling the warforged.
As a player, it was fun soaking up poisoned attacks, or wading through water, or staying up all night to guard the rest of the party. OTOH, there were times when I wished I had an extra feat or two to help me in a fight. In particular, the build I was going for (barbarian wielding two component weapons, battlefist and the sword arm one) was a bit harder to make. A human or half-orc two-weapon fighting barbarian with the same build could dish out more damage and hit more often, but I think my character's superior AC and warforged abilities balanced that. Overall, I felt like it was a fair trade.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Here is my main gripe with them in a nutshell. This, and they tread on dwarven toes too much ("I've got a +4 to saves vs. poison!" "Awww, isn't that cute, you have to save...")
Wild Gazebo
Explorer
Now, I'm not a very big fan of warforged to begin with--mostly because of the infeasibility story-wise--but most of the arguments fore and against seem awfully weak. Most arguments stem upon some conceived notion upon how a DM prepares a challenge for a party. I hardly think one or two PCs with immunities or hinderences ruin an adventure path or obstacle.
As well, I have never considered them robots--or even similar to robots. I consider them golems whose paths have crossed with the spark of life rather than animation. In fact, when the term 'steam punk' or 'higher technology' get applied to Eberron I wonder...I wonder what book they are reading.
I don't think warforged are the pinnacle to understanding, liking, or playing Eberron I think they are just a different choice...that don't realy add much or detract much. They become just another of the many factions that make up the mossaic of the Eberron game world.
As well, I have never considered them robots--or even similar to robots. I consider them golems whose paths have crossed with the spark of life rather than animation. In fact, when the term 'steam punk' or 'higher technology' get applied to Eberron I wonder...I wonder what book they are reading.
I don't think warforged are the pinnacle to understanding, liking, or playing Eberron I think they are just a different choice...that don't realy add much or detract much. They become just another of the many factions that make up the mossaic of the Eberron game world.
fanboy2000
Adventurer
I've DMed a warforged at low levels. The player was behined and was playing a lvl 1 warforged fighter (not anti-social, for what it's worth) and the rest of the party was lvl 2. The warforged preformed exactly the way I'd expect a level 1 fighter to preform in a lvl 2 party. Nor did I find that I had to do extra work to take him into account.
I've also DMed LA +1 characters at high levels and, I have to tell you, I haven't DMed an LA +1 race that didn't get screwed at high levels.
Hmmmm.... spellnoir. I like the sound of that!
I've also DMed LA +1 characters at high levels and, I have to tell you, I haven't DMed an LA +1 race that didn't get screwed at high levels.
Hmmmm.... spellnoir. I like the sound of that!
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
You could be an MMORPG designer.Mouseferatu said:I'm going to have to bookmark this thread, so I can point it out to people--and I've spoken to several--who feel that the warforged are too powerful.
Rule of Thumb: If a roughly equal number of people complain about X being underpowered and X being overpowered, X is probably pretty well balanced.
ThirdWizard
First Post
Whizbang Dustyboots said:You could be an MMORPG designer.
lol, no no. In an MMORPG the people who don't play it think its overpowered and the people who do think its underpowered. Unless you're a necromancer. Then everyone knows it's overpowered.
Personally, I like the warforged as a concept. I'm even stealing ideas from them for Modrons IMC.
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