RigaMortus
Explorer
Endur said:
I agree with you 110%. It does NOT increase the size of Druids. It increases the size of animals. And when a Druid wildshapes into an animal, his type now becomes Animal.
D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Druids - what to do about them?
I agree with you 110%. It does NOT increase the size of Druids. It increases the size of animals. And when a Druid wildshapes into an animal, his type now becomes Animal.
Thanee
First Post
beaver1024 said:
Certainly not completely (where did you draw that from?), but unbalanced... yes, they are.
Fighters are good at low and not so good at high levels.
Wizards are rather weak at low levels, but tremendously powerful at high levels.
Overall, they are balanced, if you just add up their power and divide by the 20 levels, but between the levels, there certainly are some balance issues. A steady balance, as with the cleric and druid, is surely preferable.
However, it's probably next to impossible to achieve that, especially since there also is the big factor of individual playing style involved.
Bye
Thanee
Shadowdweller
Explorer
Personally, I think the main issue here is that they simply weren't considering the ease of meeting the type requirement of Animal Growth. Even if one somehow reasons that Wildshape does NOT allow the druid to cast Animal Growth on self, you still have the issue of it affecting Polymorphed allies.BardStephenFox said:
Hey, well...at least we now have some people making the claim that Wizards are weak.Thanee said:
Think long and hard about whether it's POSSIBLE to have the "majority" of classes being unbalanced. Tells you something about popular conceptions of balance, doesn't it?beaver1024 said:
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Ridley's Cohort
First Post
MoogleEmpMog said:In my experience and in most of the theoretical work I've seen, the druid is clearly the most powerful overall base class in 3.5 across most levels, with the possible exception of Eberron's artificer. Ironic, that the most and least natural classes represent the pinnacles of power.
Anyway, here's where I'm coming from on this.
Beyond 5th level, Druids are, at worst, as good at fighting as fighters. They may lose a few points of average damage per round at times, but increase their damage output tremendously for every additional round of preparation they have. Since they can summon tons of creatures to distract or delay enemies, they typically get more time to buff themselves than other casters would.
For example, a 9th level druid can become, in two rounds, a Huge dire lion with a Strength bonus of +11, the ability to almost automatically win any grapple check against a CR-equivalent PC-race character (and most CR-equivalent monsters), and an attack routine of 2 claws +15 melee (1d8+11), 1 bite +10 melee (2d6+5). That second round of buffing also gives the druid's animal companion a huge power boost - perhaps making it into a Gargantuan giant crocodile, for instance. In one level, the druid can have a dire lion and buff it the same way he buffs himself, if he so chooses.
IME you cannot assume rounds to buff. In many a genuinely challenging fight your frontliners have either won the battle or are dead at the end round 2.
So is you Druid going to hang around in back for the beginning half of the fight using his friends' bodies as shields, then win heaps of glory for himself while standing over the corpses of his dead comrades? Or maybe he can do something useful on Round 1 like the Wizard?
The buffing "problem" is hardly unique to the Druid. The Cleric has the Divine Power and Righteous Might combo. The Psionic Warrior is better than any Fighter or Barbarian if he gets in a few of his favorite powers up and running...as he should be.
A lot of potential balance problems never arise if the DM keeps the players guessing. If the DM becomes predictable, any spellcaster in the hands of a savvy player will waltz through combats without breaking a sweat.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
mirivor said:
You would be one of those strange people with an opinion of the subject who has actually played a Druid character. Druid critics seem to miss this glaring detail, almost certainly because none of them have played the class in person.
The Druid lacks a lot of the meat and potatoes spell that the other PHB spellcasting classes take for granted. In a lot of combats it is suicidal to attempt to cast SNA because the Druid almost always have the lowest AC in the party. Without SNA the Druid's list of 2nd and 3rd level spells is so bad as to be laughable.
I have played a Druid from 2nd to 5th level. What is my best spell? Bull's Strength. Which I cast on someone else.
Lord Pendragon
First Post
I have not played the class in person. I have played in a party with a druid from 1st to 12th-level. Surely that counts for something?Ridley's Cohort said:
While I'm of the opinion that the druid isn't overpowered, I think you're exaggerating here. Entangle, Call Lightning and Flaming Sphere are good at low levels. Flamestrike is fantastic at mid-levels. And Call Lightning Storm, Firestorm, Shambler, and Changestaff at higher levels. Not to mention Death Ward, Spellstaff, Wall of Thorns, etc. etc.
The druid spell list may not have as many of the various kinds of spells that other lists do (boom spells, battlefield control, buffing, divination, transportation, etc.) but it really does have a bit of everything in there. And the spells the druid does have aren't exactly weak.
The extremely low levels are the weakest for the druid. Here, fighter-types shine. But you already have access to Call Lightning now. It's pretty much gravy from here on out.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Lord Pendragon said:
Yes, it does. I think you have a reasonable & fair view on the matter.
How many of the staunch Druid critics have stories about how the Druid is dominating the party? Have not seen any such posts.
Me? Exagerate?
My first hand experience is that Flaming Sphere is a poor spell at any level. Entangle is a good spell overall. I am unimpressed with Call Lightning -- weak damage, miniscule AoE; I can do almost as well with Produce Flame.
I think you are correct that life will look brighter once I get access to Flamestrike & Spiked Stones, then Animal Growth & Wall of Thorns. But even then it will take a number of levels before these good spells compensate for a severely anemic set of 1st-3rd level spells. Unless I am fighting on a rainy day in the forest, of course.
MoogleEmpMog
First Post
I've played druids from time to time (more as NPCs than as PCs, however), but mostly seen them in play.
I haven't seen them dominating the party.
I have seen single-classed core only druids competing evenly or outpacing with extremely powergamed combinations such as Feral (pre-Races of Destiny) Half-Ogre Barbarian/Fighters/Psychic Warriors Raised By Bears, Fighter/Ranger/Soldier/Deepwood Snipers adding Dex to damage with repeater IK rifles, and characters who were getting Charisma to hit twice, to damage, to AC twice and to saves thrice.
Unless the balance of d20 is far, far better than I ever imagined, to the point where some of the allegedly most outrageous powergaming combos around are actually no better than a typical core class, the druid was holding his own OR OUTDOING setups that most DMs would ban without a second thought.
I haven't seen them dominating the party.
I have seen single-classed core only druids competing evenly or outpacing with extremely powergamed combinations such as Feral (pre-Races of Destiny) Half-Ogre Barbarian/Fighters/Psychic Warriors Raised By Bears, Fighter/Ranger/Soldier/Deepwood Snipers adding Dex to damage with repeater IK rifles, and characters who were getting Charisma to hit twice, to damage, to AC twice and to saves thrice.
Unless the balance of d20 is far, far better than I ever imagined, to the point where some of the allegedly most outrageous powergaming combos around are actually no better than a typical core class, the druid was holding his own OR OUTDOING setups that most DMs would ban without a second thought.
IcyCool
First Post
MoogleEmpMog said:
Your experience and mine differs then. I have seen druids played, but not in every game I've played in. When the were played, they were nowhere near overpowering. They did always seem to have the right thing for the right moment (stoneshape, entangle while trying to get away, etc.), but that was it. The OTT characters in the games I've been involved in haven't even had a single druid level. And the last druid I saw that tried to out-tank the tank was pounded into unconciousness for such foolish behavior.
The druid in my current game is a Wizard 1/Druid7/Arcane Heirophant 1 (I let him qualify because of precocious apprentice with the understanding that if it proved to be too powerful I'd make some changes with the nerf bat.) So far, the power level in my party stands thusly:
1. Kallas Tharindar - Gray Elf Abjurer 6/Geometer 2/Celestial Mystic 1
2. Kael Quinn - Human Bard 6/Druid 1/Rogue 2 (Folcuchan Lyricst aspirant)
3. Dagany - Aasimar Paladin 5/Legendary Leader 3/Vassal of Bahamut 1 (Bought off level adjustment) (There might be a couple of Fighter levels in there instead of Paladin levels, the character changes often).
3. Rithin - Half-Elf Wizard 1/Druid 7/Arcane Heirophant 1
4. Ellaren - Human Wilder 8
5. Deesta - Drow Warlock 6 (Bought off one point of level adjustment)
I suspect the Drow will jump up that scale in a bit (after she buys off the last point of level adjustment, and the Paladin will bump to #1 if I let him have the Gold Dragon mount he wants. I could maybe see the Druid and the Bard going to equal footing in the later levels (but that's mainly due to the Arcane Heirophant levels). We have yet to have a combat that includes the Wilder, so she may also move around in that scale, but that is where I see it standing right now.
The Bard might seem odd up there at the top, but don't underestimate a Bard who can add +4 to everyone's combat rolls.
MoogleEmpMog
First Post
The druid appears to have wasted* at least one level (on wizard) and possibly two - I'm not sure what the arcane heirophant advances. *Wasted from a power perspective, I mean. It might make the character more fun to play, but it certainly hurts his performance from an optimization standpoint.
Wizard spells from seven levels below his ECL aren't likely to make a significant impact on his performance until near-Epic levels, if then.
If he were single-classed, he'd have large wildshape and animal growth by now (like it or not, that's an extremely powerful spell even if only applied to companions and summons, not to mention an improved animal companion.
I also don't know what celestial mystic does, but it's always good to see an abjurer. Very strong choice. Warlocks IMX are fun but not that powerful, sad to say. I'd be surprised if the poor drow ever catches up with an otherwise very strong party, although that's not to say the character won't be a blast to play. What's legendary leader from? As for the bard, it doesn't surprise me a bit - the more PCs you have, the mightier the bard becomes. I've seen a bard in a party of 12 or 13 characters. Just... ouch.
Wizard spells from seven levels below his ECL aren't likely to make a significant impact on his performance until near-Epic levels, if then.
If he were single-classed, he'd have large wildshape and animal growth by now (like it or not, that's an extremely powerful spell even if only applied to companions and summons, not to mention an improved animal companion.
I also don't know what celestial mystic does, but it's always good to see an abjurer. Very strong choice. Warlocks IMX are fun but not that powerful, sad to say. I'd be surprised if the poor drow ever catches up with an otherwise very strong party, although that's not to say the character won't be a blast to play. What's legendary leader from? As for the bard, it doesn't surprise me a bit - the more PCs you have, the mightier the bard becomes. I've seen a bard in a party of 12 or 13 characters. Just... ouch.
