D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Druids - what to do about them?

[Ridley's Cohort]

Produce Flame? Scales better than Magic Missile?
Flame Blade? Brilliant Energy weapon at 3rd level? Can cast twice and used for 2 weapon fighting?
Poison? Instant kill? DC scales infinately?
Call Lightning? At minimum caster level it does damage equivalent to 3 fireballs to 1 target. That is without combining with Cloudburst, which will enhance damage even further.

Another person who is so sure Druids are overpowered yet has never actually seen a Druid in play. Welcome!

Produce Flame is a good spell, but its glory days are over after 5th level. One obvious weakness is the ranged touch attack is not a gimme against targets engaged in melee -- you do not have the necessary archer feats. Secondly 1d6+5 is not much damage after low levels, and getting your second iterative attack at 8th level does not solve this problem. 2d6+10 damage at 8th level? Yawn.

It scales better than Magic Missile only if your fights last a very long time. Most of our fights are essentially over in 2-3 rounds (with some clean up after that). Who cares how much damage you can do with one 1st level spell over 7 or 13 or whatever rounds? The Barbarian is already in the alehouse toasting the victory while you are still toying around with your cute little flame.

Flame Blade is not the equal of a Brilliant weapon. I do like the stylishness of the TWF with Flame Blades but (1) requires a precious feat, (2) requires 2(!) precious buffing rounds, and (3) the Druid is doomed if he wades in and trades full attacks with the grunts -- damage output not good enough.

Poison is a sucker play. Instant kills are enticing, but your typically available target for Poison is something with a big Fort save who you do not want to be standing next to when it unloads a full attack.

Re-read the description of Call Lightning. You are not even close.

 

[IcyCool]

Produce Flame? Scales better than Magic Missile?
Flame Blade? Brilliant Energy weapon at 3rd level? Can cast twice and used for 2 weapon fighting?
Poison? Instant kill? DC scales infinately?
Call Lightning? At minimum caster level it does damage equivalent to 3 fireballs to 1 target. That is without combining with Cloudburst, which will enhance damage even further.

That's just core spells. Already the SNA spells are better than their SM equivalents. Not to mention non-core spells which exponentially add to the druid's power. If anything the druid spell list is not weak enough.

I do have to ask, I may have missed it earlier, but have you played a druid? Flame blade sounds nice, but you can bet you don't want to be close enough to use it. And used for 2 weapon fighting? Please. Same goes with Poison. It's sort of a weapon of last resort. Call lightning does 3d6 damage to a target. Woo. You get to call one per round. I'm shocked that you even think it compares to fireball. It doesn't even compare to Melf's Acid Arrow. Combining it with Cloudburst changes the damage to 3d10 instead. Only slightly better.

Out of that list, produce flame is the only one that is semi-useful, and it stops being that at around 4th to 5th level, or when the enemy starts to have elemental resistances. For reference, produce flames deals 1d6 +1 per level to a max of +5, as either a melee touch attack or as a thrown weapon (touch attack). The range is what makes it useful. Otherwise it is basically there to make your natural attacks in wildshape have the equivalent of the flaming ability for a few rounds.

Go back and read these "broken" spells. I'll bet you'd be surprised. The two big powerhouse spells a druid has are Animal Growth and Shapechange.

 

[beaver1024]

Produce Flame is a good spell, but its glory days are over after 5th level. One obvious weakness is the ranged touch attack is not a gimme against targets engaged in melee -- you do not have the necessary archer feats.

The original issue I was addressing was that druids have no good low level spells. By the time the druid reaches 5th level, they then have access to the massively overpowered wildshape. Having a viable spell like Produce Flame is a luxury they can fall back on later. Why do you need archer feats? You have medium BAB and it's a touch attack spell.

Secondly 1d6+5 is not much damage after low levels, and getting your second iterative attack at 8th level does not solve this problem. 2d6+10 damage at 8th level? Yawn.

It scales better than Magic Missile only if your fights last a very long time. Most of our fights are essentially over in 2-3 rounds (with some clean up after that). Who cares how much damage you can do with one 1st level spell over 7 or 13 or whatever rounds? The Barbarian is already in the alehouse toasting the victory while you are still toying around with your cute little flame.

At 8th level 2d6+10 already outdamages what magic missile can do at that level. This is only in 1 round. In 3 rounds, it is equivalent to casting magic missile 3 times continously. The battle should be over at that stage and the druid only wasted 1 1st level spell whilst the wizard would have wasted a considerable amount of resources to do the same feat.

Flame Blade is not the equal of a Brilliant weapon. I do like the stylishness of the TWF with Flame Blades but (1) requires a precious feat, (2) requires 2(!) precious buffing rounds, and (3) the Druid is doomed if he wades in and trades full attacks with the grunts -- damage output not good enough.

You need to familiarise yourself with the rules. You don't need a single feat to use 2 weapons. The druid can wear armour and has an animal companion that can trip. Even a single flame blade will enable to do high reliable damage. At low levels. Obviously the druid can dispense with the Flame blade once they obtain their massively overpowered animal combat forms.

Poison is a sucker play. Instant kills are enticing, but your typically available target for Poison is something with a big Fort save who you do not want to be standing next to when it unloads a full attack.

Obviously if you had half a brain you wouldn't be targeting a fort save spell against a monster with good fort save. You would be using your overpowered Entangle/Produce Flame spell combination instead.

I question whether you have played druids at all since you don't even know the basics of what makes a druid so qood.

Re-read the description of Call Lightning. You are not even
close.

At minimum caster level, 3d6 damage per round to 1 target for 5 rounds = 15d6 damage. At minimum caster level 1 fireball does 5d6 to damage 1 target. It takes 3 fireball to do the same amount of damage call lightning will do to a single target at caster level 5. The fact that druid have spells that come even close to the wizard's blasting capability is too much already. In addition they have armoured casting, know every spell in their list automatically, wildshaping etc etc. hosts of other benefits fighters and wizards can ever dream about.

 

[kenobi65]

At 8th level 2d6+10 already outdamages what magic missile can do at that level. This is only in 1 round. In 3 rounds, it is equivalent to casting magic missile 3 times continously. The battle should be over at that stage and the druid only wasted 1 1st level spell whilst the wizard would have wasted a considerable amount of resources to do the same feat.

Produce Flame requires an attack roll (granted, a touch attack / ranged touch attack roll). It's not an automatic hit. Magic Missile is automatic against most targets. To do that 2d6+10 damage, you have to succeed on two attacks. Also, to make those two attacks, it's a full-round action, whereas the wizard casting his Magic Missiles still has a move action left each round.

2d6+10 averages 17 points. 4d4+4 (the amount a Magic Missile does for an 8th level caster) averages 14. So, Produce Flame does a little more damage, but requires attack rolls. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me, and doesn't make Produce Flame seem overpowered, compared to Magic Missile.

(I concede your point that Produce Flame has the advantage of being more efficient, letting you use one spell for multiple rounds of attacks.)

You need to familiarise yourself with the rules. You don't need a single feat to use 2 weapons.

The point he was making was you do need the feat to be effective with two Flame Blades. Without TWF, you'd be at -6 / -10 to attack with two Flame Blades (it's treated as a scimitar, which is *not* a light weapon). Even with TWF, you're at -4 with both attacks.

At minimum caster level, 3d6 damage per round to 1 target for 5 rounds = 15d6 damage. At minimum caster level 1 fireball does 5d6 to damage 1 target. It takes 3 fireball to do the same amount of damage call lightning will do to a single target at caster level 5.

Yes...over the course of five rounds. Even with your comparison to Fireball, the Fireball will do the same damage in two fewer rounds.

3d6 averages 10.5 points per round (and half of that if the target's making his saves). It'll take multiple rounds of pounding with that to slow down anything but the most unlucky of targets. And, that whole time, the target is able to return the favor by damaging the druid or his friends.

And, you're neglecting to mention that a single Fireball can affect multiple targets. So, trying to compare Call Lightning directly versus Fireball is spurious, unless you're always encountering solitary bad guys.

(As with Produce Flame, I'll concede you the efficiency issue.)

In addition they have armoured casting,

Unless they're able to get hold of dragonhide armor, druidic armor isn't that hot. Leather? Padded? Hide? (And, even if they can get dragonhide plate, they need to burn a feat to be proficient in it, because dragonhide plate is heavy armor, and druids only get light and medium proficiency for free.) The mage armor spell looks at least as attractive, if not more, to be honest.

(And, in answer to the pending question, yes, I do play a druid, and have DMed for several of them.)

 

[IcyCool]

The original issue I was addressing was that druids have no good low level spells. By the time the druid reaches 5th level, they then have access to the massively overpowered wildshape. Having a viable spell like Produce Flame is a luxury they can fall back on later.

Produce flame is a good low level spell. It becomes nigh on useless once the enemy gets access to the various elemental resistance spells, or comes with built in fire resistance (the most common energy resistance). Your unsupported claim of "massively overpowered wildshape" is still floating out there though.

At 8th level 2d6+10 already outdamages what magic missile can do at that level. This is only in 1 round. In 3 rounds, it is equivalent to casting magic missile 3 times continously. The battle should be over at that stage and the druid only wasted 1 1st level spell whilst the wizard would have wasted a considerable amount of resources to do the same feat.

This requires two ranged touch attack rolls and a full-attack action (that's two rounds for anyone who cares about counting, one to cast, one to attack). So, provided the enemy has no fire resistance of any kind, this spell slightly outdamages magic missile provided every attack hits. How viable do you think this spell is after 5th level?

You need to familiarise yourself with the rules. You don't need a single feat to use 2 weapons. The druid can wear armour and has an animal companion that can trip. Even a single flame blade will enable to do high reliable damage. At low levels. Obviously the druid can dispense with the Flame blade once they obtain their massively overpowered animal combat forms.

This has been mentioned already, but wielding those two flame blades effectively requires a couple of feats. And I believe the best type of druid armor (aside from dragonhide) is Hide. That gives a +3 armor bonus, a -3 Armor check penalty, and slows you down. I'll take mage armor any day, thanks. And do you have any support or evidence to offer for you constant claims of "overpowered" regarding the druids wildshape forms?

Obviously if you had half a brain you wouldn't be targeting a fort save spell against a monster with good fort save. You would be using your overpowered Entangle/Produce Flame spell combination instead.

Read the Web spell sometime. It's useful even against epic characters. And again, how long before Entangle/Produce Flame becomes a pointless effort? (It's good at low levels).

I question whether you have played druids at all since you don't even know the basics of what makes a druid so qood.

If you have played a druid, and found these tactics to be reliably good, I question the ability of your GM.

At minimum caster level, 3d6 damage per round to 1 target for 5 rounds = 15d6 damage. At minimum caster level 1 fireball does 5d6 to damage 1 target. It takes 3 fireball to do the same amount of damage call lightning will do to a single target at caster level 5. The fact that druid have spells that come even close to the wizard's blasting capability is too much already. In addition they have armoured casting, know every spell in their list automatically, wildshaping etc etc. hosts of other benefits fighters and wizards can ever dream about.

5 rounds. A fireball catching 3 people in it (not hard to do) will do that in one round. If you catch more, it does even more. I'm really surpised that you are even trying to compare this to Fireball. Even Scorching Ray does more than this spell. Don't get me wrong, Call Lightning is an ok spell, but it's hardly overpowering.

Flamestrike is the closest a druid comes to wizard blasting capability. Armored casting in anything but dragonhide is a joke, and they are a divine caster, so of course they know every spell on their list. Druids get a lot of neat little benefits, and are consistently good through all the levels. You want a better comparison, try comparing a druid with a cleric.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The original issue I was addressing was that druids have no good low level spells. By the time the druid reaches 5th level, they then have access to the massively overpowered wildshape. Having a viable spell like Produce Flame is a luxury they can fall back on later. Why do you need archer feats? You have medium BAB and it's a touch attack spell.

Digging yourself deeper and deeper I see.

At fifth level the Druid becomes a "masssively uber" black bear. Oooo!

If you are suggesting I just do melee touch attacks with Produce Flame, then obviously you agree my wildshaping is not uber. If you are suggesting that I do ranged touch attacks, then I have to deal with such things as cover and penalties for firing into melee. The touch AC is going to be in the ballpark of 15-19 and is hardly a gimme.

You would know about this if you ever actually seen a Druid in play.

At 8th level 2d6+10 already outdamages what magic missile can do at that level. This is only in 1 round. In 3 rounds, it is equivalent to casting magic missile 3 times continously. The battle should be over at that stage and the druid only wasted 1 1st level spell whilst the wizard would have wasted a considerable amount of resources to do the same feat.

Your argument lacks context.

Magic Missile is what real wizards do when they are against something weird, e.g. incorporeal, or are biding their time, or want a sure thing in a confusing situation (e.g. the battleline has fallen apart and there are no clean LoS or AoE). Sadly Produce Flame is a poor choice in all of the above.

I mentioned the attack roll, that you seem to forget about, above.

If you were a strategic thinker, you would not say such things as "only wasted 1 1st level". My wizard (and druid) casts spells that ensure victory and I do not fret over the spell level. The king of efficiency of which you speak is only valuable if you have many combats in the day almost every day -- which is not the norm in my experience. (It is possible your experience is different.) In those rare days, spellcasters usually just fall back on wands and scrolls; it is not that big a deal if you plan ahead and/or have a reasonable inkling of what will unfold in the day ahead.

You are correct that the Druid excels at long leisurely battles. Those are extremely rare in my experience, probably ~1% of the fights I see.

You need to familiarise yourself with the rules. You don't need a single feat to use 2 weapons. The druid can wear armour and has an animal companion that can trip. Even a single flame blade will enable to do high reliable damage. At low levels. Obviously the druid can dispense with the Flame blade once they obtain their massively overpowered animal combat forms.

Let's see here. Massively powerful forms must start at 8th level, right? So you are talking up the 7th level Druid armed with a Flame Blade that does d8+3 damage at one attack per round? That is a sad joke.

What about TWF penalties BTW? Ever heard of those?

Obviously if you had half a brain you wouldn't be targeting a fort save spell against a monster with good fort save. You would be using your overpowered Entangle/Produce Flame spell combination instead.

First of all, high Fort monsters are as common as dirt. Deal with it.

Second of all, I marvel at the quality of mind that would suggest standing next to the big dangerous monster your Druid just Entangled. That is the stupidest tactical suggestion I have seen on these boards in a very long time.

At minimum caster level, 3d6 damage per round to 1 target for 5 rounds = 15d6 damage. At minimum caster level 1 fireball does 5d6 to damage 1 target. It takes 3 fireball to do the same amount of damage call lightning will do to a single target at caster level 5. The fact that druid have spells that come even close to the wizard's blasting capability is too much already. In addition they have armoured casting, know every spell in their list automatically, wildshaping etc etc. hosts of other benefits fighters and wizards can ever dream about.

If you fight enemies that pick their nose for 5 rounds while you pound away at them, it would explain a lot about why your opinions are so off the mark. In the games I play averaging ~8 points of damage per round (your target will make a save sometimes) is not terrible but nothing to brag about. Apparently your DM coddles you.

It is not as if I have not tried some of the things you suggest. But in actual play just about everything you have said is badly suboptimal because my Druid is not going to be so stupidly casual and leisurely while his friends are in danger.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

For the record, I have "concerns" about the Druid power level at high, high levels because of wildshape combos. However entering melee without either Animal Growth or dragonhide armor (which many DM do not include in their game) looks like outright suicide, so it seems like this could be balanced as is. The Improved Grab would be nasty, but no high level Fighter of mine will ever go without Close Quarter Fighting -- Improved Grab against me will only mean you die faster.

It is also likely that a Druid in a campaign with a lot of large battles in wide open spaces or wilderness will be too powerful. I have never played in such a campaign myself.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Unless they're able to get hold of dragonhide armor, druidic armor isn't that hot. Leather? Padded? Hide? (And, even if they can get dragonhide plate, they need to burn a feat to be proficient in it, because dragonhide plate is heavy armor, and druids only get light and medium proficiency for free.) The mage armor spell looks at least as attractive, if not more, to be honest.

Well, there is an easy alternative to dragonhide that is completely core (but requires high level or high-levelled friends to emply). Start with Masterwork or Magical metal armor of desired type. Cast Transmute Metal to Wood or get someone else to cast it (may take several attempted castings if magic). Cast Ironwood at appropriate intervals to maintain durability.

 

[kenobi65]

Actually, there is an easy alternative to dragonhide that is completely core. Start with Masterwork or Magical metal armor of desired type. Cast Transmute Metal to Wood or get someone else to cast it (may take several attempted castings if magic). Cast Ironwood at appropriate intervals to maintain durability.

True, but not always a great option.

- If you have to cast it yourself, it doesn't help until your druid is 13th level (Transmute is a 7th level spell; Ironwood is 6th).

- Transmute Metal to Wood costs the transmuted armor 2 points of armor class. While Ironwood looks like it can keep the armor from suffering the further degradation of AC that comes from being hit with a 19 or 20 ("as durable as their normal steel counterparts"), there's nothing in Ironwood that says it reverses that initial 2 point loss.

- Once you factor in that 2 point loss to AC, the transmuted metal armors that'll give you better protection than Hide (+3) are heavy armors...which takes a feat for a druid to use proficiently.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

True, but not always a great option.

- If you have to cast it yourself, it doesn't help until your druid is 13th level (Transmute is a 7th level spell; Ironwood is 6th).

- Transmute Metal to Wood costs the transmuted armor 2 points of armor class. While Ironwood looks like it can keep the armor from suffering the further degradation of AC that comes from being hit with a 19 or 20 ("as durable as their normal steel counterparts"), there's nothing in Ironwood that says it reverses that initial 2 point loss.

- Once you factor in that 2 point loss to AC, the transmuted metal armors that'll give you better protection than Hide (+3) are heavy armors...which takes a feat for a druid to use proficiently.

What if you didn't bother with Transmute Metal to Wood and got a woodworker to carve you a suit of armor, then cast Ironwood on that?

Seems it'd be as good as a standard suit, no loss of AC points at all...