D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Druids - what to do about them?

[IcyCool]

The druid appears to have wasted* at least one level (on wizard) and possibly two - I'm not sure what the arcane heirophant advances. *Wasted from a power perspective, I mean. It might make the character more fun to play, but it certainly hurts his performance from an optimization standpoint.

*cough* You should check out the Races of the Wild book when you get the chance. Arcane Heirophant advances druid and wizard spellcasting (like mystic theurge), combines the Druid's animal companion and Wizard's familiar into one, advances wildshape, and I think it allows casting of wizard spells in druid armor.

I also don't know what celestial mystic does, but it's always good to see an abjurer. Very strong choice.

With his Lantern Archon familiar, he's quite the powerhouse.

What's legendary leader from?

Heroes of Battle.

Edit - To address the poster who mentioned it, Druids are indeed almost as good as clerics now.

 

[RaVan]

IME (playing in a party with a 13th level Druid) the druid does indeed get a chance to really shine in at least one combat encounter a day. The last one by combining summon+animal growth for 3 Huge Dire Boars... that's a lot of goring.

However, that's a tough trick to get off in most situations, and there are only so many times you can try it. The other encounters of the day were controlled by other party members, usually the Ranger (the only fighter type in the group... it's an odd group).

If you're talking about balance then that seems pretty balanced to me. As each encounter is supposed to use up only so much of a party's resources, every party member should be able to shine in one encounter through the day and will probably play a supporting role in the rest. UN-balanced would mean they are consistantly the MVPc in every encounter. If that's the case then perhaps it's the player's skill (either in tactics or character creation) and not the class. Thinking that through a bit further, since PC's outnumber DM's usually 4 to 1, the odds of a PC being a better tactition then the DM are actually pretty good.

Seeing Druids in action, I'm going to conclude that unbalancing a druid is an act of a shrewd player and not the progression of the class as compared to any other.

~R

 

[Hypersmurf]

*cough* You should check out the Races of the Wild book when you get the chance. Arcane Heirophant advances druid and wizard spellcasting (like mystic theurge), combines the Druid's animal companion and Wizard's familiar into one, advances wildshape, and I think it allows casting of wizard spells in druid armor.

Yup. I'm not finding it at all overpowering, though. I'm playing a Wiz3/Drd4/ArcHie4, and being limited to 4th level spells is hurting. Plenty of variety, no punch.

-Hyp.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

a bit of a digression...

Yup. I'm not finding it at all overpowering, though. I'm playing a Wiz3/Drd4/ArcHie4, and being limited to 4th level spells is hurting. Plenty of variety, no punch.

On paper, I do not think that those Mystic Theurge-like classes have real punch until they get at least 5th level spells -- you will get some powerful area control and be able to influence the pace of combat to something more to your liking. Drawing the combats out will allow you to bring more of your resources into play. No pile of 4th level spells no matter how large can compete with 5th and 6th level spells.

 

[Hypersmurf]

On paper, I do not think that those Mystic Theurge-like classes have real punch until they get at least 5th level spells -- you will get some powerful area control and be able to influence the pace of combat to something more to your liking.

Yup. I want Wall of Thorns and Animal Growth, damn it!

-Hyp.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

IME (playing in a party with a 13th level Druid) the druid does indeed get a chance to really shine in at least one combat encounter a day. The last one by combining summon+animal growth for 3 Huge Dire Boars... that's a lot of goring.

Out of curiousity, why Dire Boars?
Dire Wolves take up a lower-level slot and have that incredibly useful Trip ability... with only slightly less HP and attack bonus. Or Brown Bears, to help out the party rogue.

 

[RaVan]

Out of curiousity, why Dire Boars?
Dire Wolves take up a lower-level slot and have that incredibly useful Trip ability... with only slightly less HP and attack bonus. Or Brown Bears, to help out the party rogue.

The Summon choices are made fairly quickly (by unspoken house rule all combat choices are quick), she was in the Dire section and the boars had more HP than the Wolves, against the monster at the time I guess that made more sense to her. Now that I look at the stats on the Brown Bear I'll be sure to recommend that in the future.

~R

 

[Brother MacLaren]

The Summon choices are made fairly quickly (by unspoken house rule all combat choices are quick), she was in the Dire section and the boars had more HP than the Wolves, against the monster at the time I guess that made more sense to her. Now that I look at the stats on the Brown Bear I'll be sure to recommend that in the future.

The bear's grapple is good against Medium or smaller foes, or Large foes if the bear has Animal Growth cast on it. Grappling does slow the game a bit in my experience, so brush up on the rules, but it can be very useful.

The wolf's trip ability, at +8 size bonus and +13 Str bonus (augmented and enlarged) can take down a cloud giant half the time. Although, and here's where I go back to my refrain "the rules are meant to be interpreted logically, not slavishly followed literally", by an absolutely literal reading of the rules you can trip an ooze. Now that's really stupid.

 

[beaver1024]

*double post*

 

[beaver1024]

You would be one of those strange people with an opinion of the subject who has actually played a Druid character. Druid critics seem to miss this glaring detail, almost certainly because none of them have played the class in person.

The Druid lacks a lot of the meat and potatoes spell that the other PHB spellcasting classes take for granted. In a lot of combats it is suicidal to attempt to cast SNA because the Druid almost always have the lowest AC in the party. Without SNA the Druid's list of 2nd and 3rd level spells is so bad as to be laughable.

I have played a Druid from 2nd to 5th level. What is my best spell? Bull's Strength. Which I cast on someone else.

Produce Flame? Scales better than Magic Missile?
Flame Blade? Brilliant Energy weapon at 3rd level? Can cast twice and used for 2 weapon fighting?
Poison? Instant kill? DC scales infinately?
Call Lightning? At minimum caster level it does damage equivalent to 3 fireballs to 1 target. That is without combining with Cloudburst, which will enhance damage even further.

That's just core spells. Already the SNA spells are better than their SM equivalents. Not to mention non-core spells which exponentially add to the druid's power. If anything the druid spell list is not weak enough.