Fix for Boost

Salix

First Post
H4H said:
Basically I wouldnt allow it.

In my table top game I simply dont allow abuses of rules, even if they are "legal."
But I rarely institute a blanket change of a rule just because it has the potential for abuse. I just dont allow the abuse. If I realize later that I allowed something to "slip through" I disallow it. Case-by-case judgement. In keeping with the design philosophy of the game, thats the philosophy I'd like to see here.
If we aren't going to allow certain builds, I think its good to get that up front in the approved content. That way people know what to expect and aren't argueing with the character judge.

Bront said:
Healing isn't realy broken. You recover 1 condition per heal check. Period. 1 Bruise, Injury, Stun, Stagger, Dying, etc, and you still have to make the check (not hard, but still). Doesn't seem too bad.
:heh: I've not been GMing that power incorrectly. I've been letting one application heal all conditions. Nonetheless, the masterminds manual specifically adresses healing, because it is hard to GM. Basically, you have characters that are hard to damage already, then you really reduce a lot of the challenge of an encounter. Also,I wouldn't allow ressurection again. NPC death is usually plot driven, so this gets in the way. I'd only allow that power to be held by NPCs.

El Jefe said:
I think one reason B&S is so effective is that he's a specialist who compliments the group that he's in very well. I don't think he'd be so strong in a solo adventure, or in a small group. Notice that he's been pretty much powerless to affect the boss villain. But in a group like that, there's always someone who needs healing...
Actually, he has some pretty impressive attack powers at perception. Spirit would have easily taken out Dr. Null if he wasn't a genius with huge will saves, and I had to use GM fiat to save him from one attack. I also had to change the tint of the vehicle so Null couldn't be percieved.

Ben Robbins (who wrote the Dr. Null missions) emailed this to me about the character
Ben Robbins said:
I looked over Body & Soul. Wow. That's a really, um, odd character for a supers game. Leaving the concept aside for a second, he's a very lopsided build: way over the top on offense, and next to zero defense. He can single-handedly take out any supervillain team from a mile away, but if anyone attacks him he goes down instantly. There are a lot of dubious things in his stats that would be red flags in most games (perception attacks, selective area attacks, attacks shifted to move actions).

But the real problem is that his powers really kill the game for everyone else. He can take out all the villains before the other heroes even get to act, he can heal any damage the heroes take so their heroic sacrifices are pretty much nerfed. And there's no point being heroic and saving people, because if the heroes fail he can just raise the dead. Yikes.

(Re the discussion of just letting everyone die and then raising the dead, his resurrection only has a 50% success -- it's a DC 20 and he has Healing 10 and there is no second chance.)
I guess that's some of the things I see about the character after GMing him in a mission. I don't mind the healing so much, but if we could tweak I'd make his attacks at touch, healing take more than a free action, and get rid of resurrection. I'm not trying to pick on Erekose13, I think B&S is a great and unique character, he's just really hard to GM.
 

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El Jefe

First Post
Salix said:
Also,I wouldn't allow ressurection again. NPC death is usually plot driven, so this gets in the way. I'd only allow that power to be held by NPCs.
I wouldn't do that. Resurrection is of limited duration (minutes=rank). All you have to do is keep the NPC away from the healer for that many minutes, and voila! Perma-death. Admittedly, you can increase the time to resurrect, but like everything else, that soaks up points during creation. Maybe what you want is some sort of limit on how long a character can be dead before the PCs have the power to raise him, that seems doable and much less restrictive.
Salix said:
Spirit would have easily taken out Dr. Null if he wasn't a genius with huge will saves, and I had to use GM fiat to save him from one attack.
That changes my impression of both the battle and of B&S. Of course, I wouldn't have known that just by reading through the thread.
Salix said:
Ben Robbins (who wrote the Dr. Null missions) emailed this to me about the character...
Ah, the eternal triangle: Offense, Defense, and Special Abilities...Pick any two! Your character can fly to the scene of the crime at hypersonic speed, level whole city blocks with his mega-ray, but will be cut down by a small child with a thrown rock.

Seriously, I think B&S's other powers (as listed in your post) are more of a hassle for GMing than the healing thing. Although consider, 72 points in healing is a lot of healing...I don't think anyone else in the game has more than about 20 points in healing.
 

Bront

The man with the probe
Perception powers are kinda odd. Since if you buy all perception powers, you don't have to buy attack. However, since for the most part, that costs as much if not more than buying attack, it's not like it's a total cop out.

On a side/balancing note, there have been 3 builds that have been fairly bothersome on the balance end as far as I'm concerned, with a simple note on a 2 others.

Note, this is not intending to call anyone a cheater, minmaxer, abuser, or anything, this is just the builds that have been the most troublesome for me as the approver to deal with.

Dominous, who first alerted me to the boost problem. He is also why I ask for backgrounds and notes on powers, because alternate powers need to make sense, and there were too many that didn't. I asked for advice from Keia and had him look over the character as well, and we talked to the owner, but never got a responce (and he hasn't been back on the boards much since). Now, he's got a cool concept and an idea, but I think the build is just abusive.

Body & Spirit is a lot of fun. We redid boost in the general forums to something that fit, we thought, as it was every stat to everyone in an area for hours initialy. However, I wasn't sure if it was too powerful at the time after the change, but it did bug me a bit. But, it had a theme, and the rest of the character seemed fine. Given we had no other restrictions, we'll see what happens.

Circe brought up issues about duration and alternate powers, where some of the lasting powers can be semi-permanent when they aren't in use. It's only 1 power, but there's that. Also, a Con of 30 means no toughness save or fort save points spent, and is slightly more usefull than having done either of those seperately. Con, as an ability, is perhaps the best of them all, with most of the others fairly balanced out with combat/skill usability. And with all powers being perception, no points were spent on attack. All in all, nothing realy is abusive about the build directly, but the combination made me pause a bit when looking it over. Technicaly, she's still not approved due to a math error, but I don't intend to decline to approve her if that is fixed.

Also of note,

Pandora has a mistake that I told her to do about the construct (The Bronze Serpant) and how to deal with not having a Con. I'm still not sure I like the fix for it (buying imunity to all fort saves), and the beast is far from thrilling otherwise, so I don't see an immediate need to fix it till I can find a good fix.

Psyren's lack of needing to hit with perception attacks allowed me to take a -2 attack +2 save shift, which means she can in theory do as much damage or be as effective as a PL10 character in many situations, but since most target saves other than toughness, which can be higher, and have a lower DC, it is less of an issue for her. Mental Blast being the tough power, and that's only at rank 8 anyway. Telekenisis needs a to hit, and she is appropriately bad at it for the most part. Also, many of her powers allow for multiple saves with increasing bonuses, so the advantage quickly goes away.

As the approver, I've been trying to be fairly flexable, and we didn't set any limits so it's been a judgement call on my part (and occasionaly Keia's) for the time being. Not sure if there is a good solution to anything other than me just saying "No" to potentialy abusive builds, but sometimes abusive is in the eye of the beholder.
 

Bront

The man with the probe
El Jefe said:
I wouldn't do that. Resurrection is of limited duration (minutes=rank).
I believe B&S can resurect up to 5 years ago, but chooses not to for the most part. He hides it, so I've never seen it as a big issue, since even in the adventure, he's taken steps to make sure he only raised inocents no one could have known were dead.
 


hero4hire

Explorer
Salix said:
If we aren't going to allow certain builds, I think its good to get that up front in the approved content. That way people know what to expect and aren't argueing with the character judge.

There can be any number of abusive builds. Too many to list. But one could go through and make a sticky of Powers that would be paid EXTRA attention to during the review process.

Boost being up there! :)
 

hero4hire

Explorer
Bront,

Do you need an extra pair of eyes for character creation approval? I remember you had another character judge at one point but you seem to be handling the load by yourself for awhile now.

~H4H
 


Rystil Arden

First Post
Bront said:
And with all powers being perception, no points were spent on attack.

That's not technically true--she does have attacks that aren't perception, but I just bought Accurate in those particular attacks to max them out. However--

Bront said:
Psyren's lack of needing to hit with perception attacks allowed me to take a -2 attack +2 save shift

Is that really allowed? If I had known, I would have done it. I told my players they weren't allowed to do this when one of them suggested taking a -10 to attack cap to get a +10 to save DC (he had no powers with an attack roll). This made me institute the following (IMO reasonable) house rule--the save DC cap raise only applies to attacks that use attack rolls. It's only fair. By the way, Psyren has a problem with Diplomacy--Attractive feat counts as ranks, and she thus has more than the maximum 13 ranks in the skill.
 


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