15th level NPC vs. 9th level party

RangerWickett · May 7, 2007

This has some spoilers for WotBS, so I suggest if you're playing, you not read this.

I hear a lot of people say that high-level NPCs aren't really as challenging as monsters with equivalent CRs. I'm planning a scene with a monk 4/cleric 1/sorcerer 10 vs. a party of 9th level characters. The monk has been designed to have a lot of endurance, with 97 hp, AC 22 (30 with mage armor and shield, and she'll have a chance to pre-buff), saves in the high teens, and the travel domain ability for 1 round of reprieve in case she's held.

I've attached the scene. She has two bonus feats because of alternate class features, having given up her familiar from sorcerer and her armor and shield proficiencies from cleric.

The fight takes place in two main rooms. The PCs come in through a small warehouse full of vats of magical goo, in which monsters are being grown. They have a fight in there with a guard monster, the sounds of which alert the main NPC villain. At the end of the room is a staircase that leads up to a pair of double doors, which lead into the office of the villain. This is a 60-ft. radius circular room with a big skylight overhead, and a 2nd floor balcony circling the inside of the room, with lots of furniture and things to move on for good wuxia-esque combat.

For comparison, a nalfeshnee is CR 14, has 175 hp, AC 27, DR 10/good, SR 22, and does a helluva lot more damage per attack, but doesn't get as strong spellcasting.

Do you think she's really CR 15? Too easy, too hard? Are the spells broken? Most importantly, could a 9th level party take her down? What about if they had already had one or two encounters at CR 9. If it's too hard, I'll have to tone Caela down -- probably ditching Cleric first, then a monk level or two, since I really like like lightning. It was inspired by lightning leap in Complete Mage.

Darklone · May 7, 2007

She's a wimp.

Some points:
- Str 8? That means no melee. Why the monk levels then, simply for evasion and saves and a DC 19 stunning fist (LOW!)?
- AC 30 is not that great against level 9 PCs but looks ok, I don't see though how she reaches it... wis 10 and no Ascetic Mage feat... I suppose the bracers of dex are not yet included in the Dex 22?
- She's multiclassed as a main spellcaster... that's a big drawback resulting in being much less than CR 15.
- Her Cha is pretty low... causing her DCs to be rather weak.
- Ice Storm does not have a saving throw.

Like lightning looks strange... you cannot only move in a line like most lightning spells, right? That means 10d6 for every PC and you moved away. Still, the one round casting time means you won't normally be able to use it...

About the group: Do you have spellcasters with these orb spells? If yes, Caela will be dead in one or two rounds. Is your group powergaming or rather normal?

A normal level 15 sorcerer would probably blast that group away, but this NPC ... probably not.

Edit: Don't forget to use the feather tokens early as preparation... they have a nice long duration and might easily grapple some weaker PCs.

Nifft · May 7, 2007

As the wise man above me has posted, multi-class spellcaster isn't CR (sum of levels). This is a reasonable time to use non-associated class level costs.

So, Sorc 10 = CR 10
+5 non-associated levels = +2
Total = CR 12

The Monk levels will provide saves, hit points, and some bonus feats -- which you will mostly just use defensively, like to avoid grapples rather than initiate them. Deflect Arrow is great, too.

Cleric? For 1 round domain ability? I know she's an NPC, but shouldn't she consider multi-class XP penalties? Just from the standpoint of verisimilitude?

Suggestions:
1/ Ascetic Mage. Yeah.
2/ Battle Sorcerer 10 / Swordsage 4. Light armor. More BAB. Keep Ascetic Mage. Yeah.
3/ Drop the Cleric level. It adds very little.
4/ Lots of Sorcerer levels = benefit from Draconic or Infernal Heritage feats. Take 'em. Particularly the one that gives you a breath weapon or howl attack.

Cheers, -- N

Shazman · May 7, 2007

I totally agree that classed humanoids are way weaker than equivalent CR monsters. This is especially true of multiclassed casters. By the rules, the NPC is a CR 15 but actually presents the treat of a CR 11 or 12. This encounter will be realtively easy, and will net the PC's a lot of relatively free exp if you give them exp for a CR 15 encounter.

Darklone · May 7, 2007

I'd rather get these Celestial sorcerer heritage feats... flying isn't a problem then.

If you want to stick with the cleric level, get a domain that gives your most important spells a casterlevel bonus.

Nail · May 7, 2007

Ditch the cleric level. What's the in-character point?

evilbob · May 7, 2007

I think a neat side-effect of this thread is showing how painful it can be to multiclass casting classes! (Especially core classes.) I think a PC with these levels would be equally underwhelming (and take an XP penalty, as others have mentioned).

RangerWickett · May 7, 2007

Nail said:
Ditch the cleric level. What's the in-character point?

There's a monastery with two styles of martial arts. One is the gentle west wind style (cleric/monk, where you fly serenely through combat), and the other is the fierce east wind style (sorcerer/monk, where you strike like lightning). Flavor-wise, I gave her both styles because she's the emissary of the school (though she favors one of the two teachers). Mechanics wise, I really didn't want her going down to a nat 1 on a save against hold person.

Her AC is actually too high. It should be 10 + 2 Charisma (east wind style ability) +6 Dex +2 deflection (ring) +1 natural (shirt) = 21, plus 8 for mage armor and shield.

She's designed to be a fun encounter, not to kill the party, and so I've tried to give her flashy abilities. This is for an adventure I'm editing, so I can't use any non-SRD WotC material, so no swordsage and such. If I could, yeah, she'd probably be a swordsage/battle sorcerer (from Unearthed Arcana).

Do you think she'll last a good few rounds, and be the equivalent of, say, a CR 12?