I hate cross class skills....

Aussiegamer · Jul 3, 2007

I dislike the cross class idea for games like d20 m and D&D. I don't want to use skill sets or areas or such that I have seen in other systems either. I like the idea to select on a free base type set up, with a few restrictions.

so this is my idea

Basics:
LM = learning mod (average of mods for INT and WIS)

Skill pool size is: 5 + LM (min 1)

This number is up for grabs, I would need to do some more looking here

Start:
start skill pool is set during starting occupation stage prior to 1st level.

During starting occupation you can assign the limit of the pool size. Up to max of 3 or 5 for specialised

To add to skills in pool:

Learning check using LM as the modifier

DC: 15 + 2 per skill above pool maximum.

Now to increase your ranks in the skill

DC: 5 + 1 per rank trying to obtain.

Mods will be added for type (I have 4 types)

How to assign:
Players have an amount of attempts for free at each level, which added to the total amount left. So no losing them at a new level.

Though if they are lost, then it would mean the players try harder to use skills during the adventure.

You can only attempt to add a new skill or rank (up to the skill maximum) if you have been successful with that skill. (GM call)

Gaining above the free attempts:
I also will be allowing more checks BUT they must go to a external palce like a gym or uni or such...

Once learnt:
Once they character know the new skill it is treated as part of the pool, so not harder to leanr new ranks or such.

thoughts?

I know its a bit vague right now, just trying to get the idea right.

JBowtie · Jul 3, 2007

Why don't you simply make all skills class skills? That's the approach taken by True20, and the only effect I've seen in my game is that people are much more creative when putting together character backgrounds.

The big benefit from a GM point of view is that I can double-check character stats by adding up the skill ranks; before I would have to do extra work to make sure skill points were spent correctly (and more often than not someone made a mistake).

The problem I generally face with more complicated systems (including the skill pools in Iron Heroes) is that it creates busywork when levelling characters AND makes it hard to stat out high-level characters - the GM not only has to do that all the time but has to fact-check player sheets as they level up.

Aussiegamer · Jul 3, 2007

I have really made them all class skills....I think I just out thought myself...lol

yer they get free skills per level, but can only assign the free skills to those skills they have had a successful check for, trained or untrained.

You can go to learning place to get more skills, they havea check already in place so no real need for me to adjust that.

So drop the pool idea...yep too much not required blar blar blar

But I like the idea of limiting actual ranks to the ability of the creature to learn it, why should a INT 3 be able to get high ranks in some skill like craft or repair or knowledge or piloting a space craft.

So this becomes a limiter for the ranks and not the skill availablity. making base for skills at 10 ranks DC 15 to learn more...thus not making to low for all but tougher at higher ends.

The skills are attempts and not just assigned, so makes them more risky to use on higher end skills.

Might look at a mod for number of attempts adding to the roll against the check...maybe???

So base DC 5 +1 / rank already assigned to skill.

Thinking:
physical skills -5 DC
and for military/ covert skills and basic skills +0 DC
for intermediate +5 DC
for advanced +10 DC

Thus limiting to higher end skills to the better to learn characters.

sound better?

Ranger REG · Jul 3, 2007

Aussiegamer said:
But I like the idea of limiting actual ranks to the ability of the creature to learn it, why should a INT 3 be able to get high ranks in some skill like craft or repair or knowledge or piloting a space craft.

So, in addition to limiting skill point allotment (minimum 1), and penalizing Int-based skills (due to low Int score and associated modifier), you also want to limit ALL SKILLS' rank ceiling based on Int. Doesn't that give Int-based skills double penalties?

Psion · Jul 3, 2007

JBowtie said:
Why don't you simply make all skills class skills?

I think that's a horrible idea. You diffuse the meaning of the class and open the door for abuse.

I think cross class penalty is pretty harsh. A solution I find workable and easy to use is to simply provide the players with options that allow them to add 1 or 2 additional permanent class skills. I've seen different variations of this in a few games and it works well.

Voadam · Jul 3, 2007

Psion said:
I think that's a horrible idea. You diffuse the meaning of the class and open the door for abuse.

I disagree. I've done this in a house rule D&D game and the players have picked skills appropriate for their concepts of their characters. It has worked well for me.

What abuses are you worried about?

Tumble and use magic device are the ones I hear people bring up but these are not that big a deal IMO.

Waylander · Jul 3, 2007

Psion said:
I think that's a horrible idea. You diffuse the meaning of the class and open the door for abuse.

I think cross class penalty is pretty harsh. A solution I find workable and easy to use is to simply provide the players with options that allow them to add 1 or 2 additional permanent class skills. I've seen different variations of this in a few games and it works well.

You could formalise this as an additional number of skills equal to a character's intelligence modifier +1?

(The +1 is to establish a minimum amount of flexibility for low INT characters.)

Psion · Jul 3, 2007

Voadam said:
What abuses are you worried about?

Tumble and use magic device are the ones I hear people bring up but these are not that big a deal IMO.

Spot/listen or their equivalents.

How many skills do your players cherry pick? If it's only one or two (which I suspect it is), then it's probably not a problem and the characters probably still make sense. All my variation of the rule does is formalize that for the purposes of players who aren't as reasonable...

Baby Samurai · Jul 3, 2007

Use the d20 Star Wars:Saga Edition Skill system.

Voadam · Jul 3, 2007

Psion said:
Spot/listen or their equivalents.

How many skills do your players cherry pick? If it's only one or two (which I suspect it is), then it's probably not a problem and the characters probably still make sense. All my variation of the rule does is formalize that for the purposes of players who aren't as reasonable...

Let's see.

I made everyone take a specific language for campaign purposes so I won't count that one mandatory skill point as cherry picking.

In the campaign so far I've had:

Barbarian/lizardfolk: none
hexblade/soulknife: speak language
sorcerer: slight of hand, tumble (freak show circus background)
cleric/knight: none
psychic warrior/soulknife: survival
Ranger: escape artist, knowledge (the planes), disguise, slight of hand, speak language, tumble (tiefling often on the run)
Armor Adept (I'd have to check the normal class skill list from Deeds not Words, see if he gets knowledges and spot and listen)
Technologist (I'd have to check the Fantastic science to see if handle animal is on the class list)
Fighter: move silent, hide
sorceror/warlock: not sure if sense motive is on the warlock list
Cleric: None