I hate cross class skills....

[Psion]

You can take strong and be sneaky....look a scout

You can take charismatic and be sneaky...look an agent

you can take smart and do fighting skills...Officer material that man!

I can do all of those without JBowtie's suggestion.

so the player defines the character, with some restrictions, the way they want it to be.

Exactly. I'm really not debating with you, for your system seems to not want to throw the doors wide open, which is what I am really arguing is a poor idea. (That said, it seems a bit complex compared to the other systems I have cited.)

 

[Aussiegamer]

Well, you all certainly don't game by my leave. But just as a matter of discourse, I have never found unfettered character choice to be all that it's cracked up to be.

It is a discussion and I try to listen to all sides.

I can see its not for you...just as cross class are not for me. Not everyone likes a systems rules...thats why we have HR

I've played a variety of games over the years, many featuring freeform point buy sort of arrangement. I've generally found that players who are good at character design in an open system tend to make cohesive characters that resemble those that might come out of a structured chargen system. Those who are poor at it generally make scattershot characters out of a paranoid need to cover all bases that really aren't so good for team play.

and yes using a more complex system you need to put more effort into it. I found the same thing when my PCs made their characters the first time, but they got the hang of it.

Like all systems you need to get used to it and adapt your play to it. PC design is not the same for all games.

So it's MHO that while D20 could afford some more choice (and the games I mentioned above are good takes on this), you are far better off with a system that helps all players design characters like the good players do. A system that "makes all skills class skills" is not a formula to make that happen.

forcing players to make "this choice" or nothing is not really a choice is it.

Yes D&D makes for a simple system to build a PC, but it is too restrictive for me and does not allow for enough flex...just look at all the new core and PrCs....


NOTE:

The players seemed to enjoy the newer system and they got more into the role play as they tried to use their skills more, both for increasing their skills and for the xp.

I use a system that rewards skill use and ideas over combat. You get some for combat but you'll get more for the skills you use in that combat.

 

[Aussiegamer]

I can do all of those without JBowtie's suggestion.

A lot of the system require some of this class or that class and then you end up with a pretty poor character, some abilities you will never use or a poor combat character for a PrC that is combat based etc etc etc.

And his suggestions are too simplistic for me as well, checks and balances work best for an open system or you get Monty Haul....Just opening them all up is not right for me either.

Exactly. I'm really not debating with you, for your system seems to not want to throw the doors wide open, which is what I am really arguing is a poor idea. (That said, it seems a bit complex compared to the other systems I have cited.)

yes I tried to put in checks and balances, as I don't want a free for all either.

So this is one of the ideas I have had.

And more complex than D&D or Modern yep guilty as charged, less complex than some yep as well.

I like the idea of a more complex building system but a simple game playing system still.

 

[Aussiegamer]

fresh post with changes​

Basics:
LM = learning mod (average of mods for INT and WIS, rounded down)


Start:
During starting occupation you can assign the limit of the available skills up to max of 3 or 5 for specialised without a check.


To add to ranks skills:
Learning check using LM as the modifier for the check


Increase the ranks in the skill

DC: 5 + 1 per rank trying to obtain.

Mods:
Untrained: + 5 DC

Skills:
Physical: -5 DC
Military/ covert skills and basic: +5 DC
Intermediate: +5 DC
Advanced: +10 DC

I can see some feats for broad based mods +1, area specific +2 and skill specific +4 being made by me as well.



How to assign:
Players have an amount of attempts for free at each level, which are lost if unused before leveling.

(yes GM could allow a last burst of attempts before the level die is rolled)

High end creation:
A single roll can be used to set the upper limit available for each level, all attempts are successful, or individual checks for each check with a chance of failure can be done.

You can only attempt to add a new skill or rank (up to the skill maximum) if you have been successful with that skill. (GM call)


Gaining above the free attempts:
I also will be allowing more checks BUT they must go to a external palce like a gym or uni or such...