Converting Psionic Creatures

freyar said:

I generally agree with Cleon here.

On the reflection bit: were 1e psionics pretty much all mind-affecting? If so, let's go with Cleon's suggestion. If not, let's use something based on spell turning.

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After some rumination, I've got a couple more points to raise.

Firstly, ordinary horseshoe crabs crawl along the bottom, they don't swim. I've given the magical version a Swim Speed of 50 ft., but we may want to cut it out. Note the Monstrous Crab doesn't have a swim speed, but IIRC the AD&D Giant Crab did have a slow swim speed. Also, they're almost as fast as a human (11"), so I'd up the Crab's land speed to 30 ft.

Secondly, horseshoe crabs don't have long claws like some regular crabs do. Their relatively short claws should have a similar reach to a Monstrous Scorpion or Spider of the same size, or 5 feet for a Large individual.

Thirdly, are we making these things Amphibious? Ordinary horseshoe crabs can crawl onto the land for a while, so they ought to at least have Hold Breath. I think we should leave them Amphibious.

Fourthly, they can burrow - but I'd add a note they can only do this through light soils, mud and sand.

Fifthly, I'm not so sure about using the standard Improved Grab & Constrict routine for them. The original monster doesn't have a constrict attack. That said, I would like to do something with the "On its underside the crab has a sucking mouth flanked by two crablike claws. Behind this are bony, grinding ridges that crush food; all that a crab seizes is passed here by its claws and then transferred forward into the mouth, which will regurgitate undigestible material." So how about using a Dire Ape's Rend - if it hits a victim with both claws it pushes it through the "crusher" for an extra 2d8+7 damage?

Seventhly and finally, I'm wondering whether we should change the SLAs to some kind of electricity-generating Supernatural Ability. It seems rather dim to be casting spells.

Putting all that together, we get something like the following. If you're OK with it we've only got the Feats, Skills and Challenge Rating to argue about:

Horseshoe Crab, Giant
Large Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 6d10+9 (42 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (4 squares), swim 50 ft., burrow 20 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +9 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+15
Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d4+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d4+5) and bite +5 melee (2d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Rend 2d8+7, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Amphibious, immunity to mind-affecting attacks, low-light vision, reflect mental attacks, scent, vermin-like
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 13
Skills: 9 Hide +, Spot +
Feats: 3 plus Toughness (B)
Environment: Temperate aquatic
Organization: Solitary or colony (2–10)
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7–11 HD (Large); 12-18 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: ---

Combat

Rend (Ex): A giant horseshoe crab that hits with both claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body crushes it between bony, grinding plates behind its mouth. This attack automatically deals an extra 2d8+7 points of damage.


Reflect Mental Attacks (Ex): All mind-affecting attacks targeting a giant horseshoe crab are automatically turned back upon their original caster. Area effect attacks are not reflected. The attacker saves against the attack as normal.



Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At-will—shocking grasp (DC12), 3/day—lightning bolt (DC14) at caster level 5, the save DCs are Charisma-based.

Added to Homebrews.

Cleon said:

Firstly, ordinary horseshoe crabs crawl along the bottom, they don't swim. I've given the magical version a Swim Speed of 50 ft., but we may want to cut it out. Note the Monstrous Crab doesn't have a swim speed, but IIRC the AD&D Giant Crab did have a slow swim speed. Also, they're almost as fast as a human (11"), so I'd up the Crab's land speed to 30 ft.

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Agreed to dropping swim speed and increasing land speed.

Cleon said:

Secondly, horseshoe crabs don't have long claws like some regular crabs do. Their relatively short claws should have a similar reach to a Monstrous Scorpion or Spider of the same size, or 5 feet for a Large individual.

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Agreed.

Cleon said:

Thirdly, are we making these things Amphibious? Ordinary horseshoe crabs can crawl onto the land for a while, so they ought to at least have Hold Breath. I think we should leave them Amphibious.

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Amphibious works for me.

Cleon said:

Fourthly, they can burrow - but I'd add a note they can only do this through light soils, mud and sand.

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We can note that in the flavor text, but I don't want to tinker with the ability.

Cleon said:

Fifthly, I'm not so sure about using the standard Improved Grab & Constrict routine for them. The original monster doesn't have a constrict attack. That said, I would like to do something with the "On its underside the crab has a sucking mouth flanked by two crablike claws. Behind this are bony, grinding ridges that crush food; all that a crab seizes is passed here by its claws and then transferred forward into the mouth, which will regurgitate undigestible material." So how about using a Dire Ape's Rend - if it hits a victim with both claws it pushes it through the "crusher" for an extra 2d8+7 damage?

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Sure, rend works here.

Cleon said:

Seventhly and finally, I'm wondering whether we should change the SLAs to some kind of electricity-generating Supernatural Ability. It seems rather dim to be casting spells.

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I've seen mindless creatures with SLAs, so it's not necessarily problematic. Still, since they're both electricity effects, I could see rolling them into a Su ability. It'll help the save DCs as they advance.

Something like...

Electrical Strike (Su): A giant horseshoe crab may make a melee touch attack to deal xd6 points of electricity damage. When delivering the jolt, it gains a +3 bonus on its attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or made out of metal, carrying a lot of metal, or the like).

Thrice per day, a giant horseshoe crab can generate enough of a charge to release a x-foot line of lightning that deals xd6 points of electricity damage to all creatures within the area (Reflex DC 14 half). This otherwise functions like a lightning bolt spell. The save DC is Charisma-based. (We could change it to Con-based and lower Cha to a more reasonable number for its Int).


"Vermin-like" is probably unnecessary, since the vermin type really only gets them immunity to mind-affecting stuff (which these already have) and vulnerability to a very limited number of spells.

Shade said:

Added to Homebrews.

Agreed to dropping swim speed and increasing land speed.

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Actually I'm OK with giving them a good swim speed, since these are magical arthropod monsters they could easily be better swimmers than their mundane kin.

Shade said:

I've seen mindless creatures with SLAs, so it's not necessarily problematic. Still, since they're both electricity effects, I could see rolling them into a Su ability. It'll help the save DCs as they advance.

Something like...

Electrical Strike (Su): A giant horseshoe crab may make a melee touch attack to deal xd6 points of electricity damage. When delivering the jolt, it gains a +3 bonus on its attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or made out of metal, carrying a lot of metal, or the like).

Thrice per day, a giant horseshoe crab can generate enough of a charge to release a x-foot line of lightning that deals xd6 points of electricity damage to all creatures within the area (Reflex DC 14 half). This otherwise functions like a lightning bolt spell. The save DC is Charisma-based. (We could change it to Con-based and lower Cha to a more reasonable number for its Int).

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Yes that's pretty much what I was thinking of. 5d6 electrical for the touch or 6d6 for the bolt?

Constitution-based would be my preference. Drop the Charisma to 8?

Speaking of Constitution, Con 12 is looking a little low to me. Horseshoe crabs are tough survivors, so maybe increase it to Con 16?

I'm toying with the idea of it having a 1 round "recharge time" after using its shocking touch to pay homage to the original's "one shock per 10 rounds". Even if it can shock once per round it does plenty of damage with its claw/claw/bite (average 26 points if all hit), so it still has a motive for resorting to melee.

I'd make the lightning a 120 foot line, like the spell.

We'd better add the "electrical strike" to its attack line.

Revising...

Electrical Strike (Su): A giant horseshoe crab may make a melee touch attack to deal 5d6 points of electricity damage. When delivering the jolt, it gains a +3 bonus on its attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or made out of metal, carrying a lot of metal, or the like).

Thrice per day, a giant horseshoe crab can generate enough of a charge to release a 120-foot line of lightning that deals 6d6 points of electricity damage to all creatures within the area (Reflex DC 14 half DC 16 if we raise Con to 16). This otherwise functions like a lightning bolt spell. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Shade said:

"Vermin-like" is probably unnecessary, since the vermin type really only gets them immunity to mind-affecting stuff (which these already have) and vulnerability to a very limited number of spells.

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Yes, that's why I cut it out shortly after writing it.

...Oh I see, I cut it out of the combat entry but forgot to remove it from the SQ line. It's easy to do.

All sounds good. Updated.

I'd be OK with a recharge time, but I don't think it is necessary as many lesser electrical creatures (shocker lizard, electric eel) don't require one.

Shade said:

All sounds good. Updated.

I'd be OK with a recharge time, but I don't think it is necessary as many lesser electrical creatures (shocker lizard, electric eel) don't require one.

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I'm fine with the no-recharge approach.

However, I feel the "When delivering the jolt" bit in the special attack's description serves little purpose. Should we cut it out?

Agreed. Extraneous text cut.

(The crushing noise the crab makes while eating has earned it the nickname "chont.")

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Any support for simply renaming these creatures "chonts"? That leaves room for a non-magical giant horseshoe crab somewhere down the road. Plus, it has a nice "chuul"-like vibe.

Horseshoe crabs have three pairs of eyes: one set on the underside of its front rim, a large pair on the carapace, and a small hidden pair atop the abdomen. Thus, they can see the approach of creatures out to a 9" range (or the limit of sight in the surrounding waters, if less), and are rarely surprised. These eyes can distinguish movement and masses of color, but not images.

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All-around vision?

Chonts are immune to all mind-control spells and all cold and electrical attacks

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It looks like we need to add immunity to cold and electricity to the SQ line.

Chonts will always defend their smaller brethren if the latter are attacked nearby. Sailors report that these normally placid creatures occasionally attack and smash small craft, attacking in a group by ramming the boat with their armored snouts and then seizing creatures in the water.

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Give 'em ramming like a leviathan or ocean strider?

Shade said:

Any support for simply renaming these creatures "chonts"? That leaves room for a non-magical giant horseshoe crab somewhere down the road. Plus, it has a nice "chuul"-like vibe.

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Good idea, Chont it is.

Shade said:

All-around vision?

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I wondered about including All-Around Vision but I also mused about giving them 60 foot tremorsense like Monstrous Spiders and Scorpions have. In the end I couldn't decide so left out both.

Real-world scorpions have a similar eye arrangement to Horseshoe crabs, and scorpions don't get All-Around Vision in their Monstrous D&D version. Furthermore, real Horseshoe crabs have poor eyesight, relying mostly on their other senses (so maybe tremorsense?).

However, as we're making these Chonts a "Magical Beast" that's no reason not to give them All-Around Vision instead of tremorsense.

Oh to heck with it, let's give them both.

Shade said:

It looks like we need to add immunity to cold and electricity to the SQ line.

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Oops, I thought I already had.

Shade said:

Give 'em ramming like a leviathan or ocean strider?

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Sure, sounds like a good fit.

Updated.

The leviathan is Colossal, and an ocean strider is Huge. We may need to tone this down for the Large chont...

Ramming (Ex): As a standard action during its turn each round, an ocean strider can swim at up to quadruple speed (240 feet) and ram a waterborne target (such as a ship or another creature). To ram, the ocean strider must end its movement in the target's space. This attack deals 2d8+6 points of damage. If the target is a creature, it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a DC 29 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Upon ramming a ship, the ocean strider can make a Strength check to breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships). Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC 15). Success means the creature takes 1d10 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact; failure means the creature is hurled overboard.

Shade said:

Updated.

The leviathan is Colossal, and an ocean strider is Huge. We may need to tone this down for the Large chont...

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That looks basically OK.

I'd rather it be a full-round action like a regular charge rather than a standard action.

We could cut the ramming damage a bit (to 2d6+Str?) but it does 2d8 with its bite, so having it do the same damage with its ram doesn't seem too far-fetched.

We can keep the break DCs the same. With its +5 Strength bonus an average Chont has a 5% chance of breaching a sailing ship or longboat, a 15% chance for a keelboat and a 30% for a rowboat. That seems acceptable.

Having a flat DC15 Reflex save seems a bit wiffy to me. A blow that would really rock a rowboat would presumably barely quiver a large galleon. Maybe make the DC 38 minus the Break DC? That'd make it Ref save to avoid a fall DC18 aboard a rowboat, keelboat DC15, sailing ship or longship DC 13, warship DC 11, or galley DC 8. Of course, that is more fiddly than a flat DC15.

I don't like the 1d10 damage to passengers on the rammed vessel. I'd rather it be 1d6 damage, like a fall of less than 10 feet or a fall off a horse.

Maybe allow a Tumble or Jump check to convert the damage into nonlethal, maybe even a Profession (sailor) check.

Modifying the Ocean Strider's version...

Ramming (Ex): As a full-round action, a chont can swim at up to quadruple speed (200 feet) and ram a waterborne target (such as a ship or another creature). To ram, the chont must end its movement in the target's space. This attack deals 2d8+5 [or 2d6+5] points of damage. If the target is a creature, it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a DC 18 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Upon ramming a ship, the chont can make a Strength check to breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships). Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC 15 [or DC38 minus the vessel's break DC?]). Success means the creature takes 1d6 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact; failure means the creature is hurled overboard. The creatures can soften the impact and make the 1d6 damage nonlethal by succeeding at a DC15 Jump, [Profession (sailor)?] or Tumble check.

The suggested break DC and damage revisions work for me, but I'd rather not modify the core ability which is shared among more than just those two creatures. (In other words, stick with standard action, and drop the additional skill checks).

Thus...

Ramming (Ex): As a standard action, a chont can swim at up to quadruple speed (200 feet) and ram a waterborne target (such as a ship or another creature). To ram, the chont must end its movement in the target's space. This attack deals 2d8+5 points of damage. If the target is a creature, it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a DC 18 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Upon ramming a ship, the chont can make a Strength check to breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships). Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a DC 15 Reflex saving throw. Success means the creature takes 1d6 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact; failure means the creature is hurled overboard.