D&D 4E How would you re-envision Ravenloft for 4e.

Moderators please read:

There was a misunderstanding with the moderator. They shut down the original thread I started. They thougth I was trying to start a thread about revising existing Ravenloft to make it work in 4e, like the one here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=215353

My thread was an attempt to allow players to re-envision the setting as WOTC is doing with 4e with Forgotten Realms (i.e. moving the setting ahead 100 years, causing changes to the pantheon, introducing the spell plague, wiping out half the dales etc). http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=215528

These are two entriely different discussions and I was already familiar with the previous thread. I want peoples who vision of ravenloft presented here, not how to adapt the 2e or White Wolfe version of raveloft into 4e mechanics.

Thanks you for understanding and not closing the thread this time.

Here is the text from my previous posts so posters can understand the guidelines:

So, 4e has come out. You are working on the WOTC staff incharge of making the campaign guide for the 4e Ravenloft setting. What changes do you make to the setting? What do you focus on for the players to do? How do you change D&D game play? What changes do you make to the story? What sort of content do you plan for the campaign guide?

Truthfully, my solution would piss off a lot of the old-school Ravenlofters, but I don't see any way around it.

For Ravenloft to work truly in 4e, it would need to attract a new audience. With Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, it's pretty clear that WotC hit reboot on the setting as a whole.

I would continue with that...but still pay homage to the old-school fans. I would simply do thiat - set the timeline far past the Time of Ultimate Darkness.

The problem with the setting in its current state is that the ToUD is impeding. And has been for quite some time, with no conclusion. I would set the date far past the ToUD and reveal a much-changed land.

First of all, I would have the Ravenloft continent be surrounded by water. Sure, the Mists are still there, but I would have it be a proper land. The people living there would have no idea that it was a demiplane. Indeed, having it as a demiplane might not even work with the new cosmology.

With the timeline so advanced, many of the Darklords would be radically changed. And so would the domains. I would also have it to where there could actually be war between the domains. Right now, war is impossible because of the ability to seal off the domains.

Those are just some thoughts off of the top of my head.

Obviously, the race line-up would have to change somewhat. Since the Fey in 4e are much darker in tone, I think they fit right into the Shadow Fey idea in Ravenloft. I'd have the Eladrin be hard-core Shadow Fey who come from the Shadow Rift, while elves are the outcasts from those realms. I would put Calibans back in and take Tieflings out - it's just a better fit. I don't know what I would do with Dragonborn.

The magic system has never been "core" to Ravenloft. So changes in that are no problem.

Warlocks fit right into the setting. Wizards remain wizards. No big deal. Warlords really fit into the setting with folks like Strahd himself or Drakov. Hell, the Warlord class was made for someone like Drakov.

Actually, I would get rid of the idea of 'domains' altogather. They are stupid IMO.
I would just have the dutchy of braovia, castle ravenloft and strahd as the overlord.

Apart form this the entire world and continent would be mostly unexplored, leaving gm's free reign over what to put there.

The ultimate POL setting IMO.

Sitara said:

Actually, I would get rid of the idea of 'domains' altogather. They are stupid IMO.
I would just have the dutchy of braovia, castle ravenloft and strahd as the overlord.

Apart form this the entire world and continent would be mostly unexplored, leaving gm's free reign over what to put there.

The ultimate POL setting IMO.

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I think it needs more content than that. I agree that you could remove the idea of domains, or to some effect give the setting a world that is not just a demiplane.

What if the domains existed to a limited degree, that they were territories that have been transplanted or invaded from other places and took over an existing world. The world itself could have been pulled between planes, cut off from gods and so on. It could be a place that is a prison of sorts (like in the original setting) but instead of this patch work of disjointed domains that doesn't fit together, the dark lord's domain corrupts the area of the world and flavors it but leaves the general geography there. This would give Ravenloft a normal world, but places like castle ravenloft with Strahd and each of the other dark lords too. The world would be haunted by their corrupting presence.

Najo said:

What if the domains existed to a limited degree

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I would still like Domains, but obviously in 4th Ed as there is no Ethereal plane the Demi-plane of Dread would no longer be floating in the Ethereal. Maybe in 4th Ed it would be a strange dominion in the Astral Sea…?

Also, what of demi-planes in 4th Ed – do they still exist?

I don't think moving forward 100 years is the answer for Ravenloft. There is still a lot with the 2e/3e material that could be explored whether the mechanics of the game change or not. The gazetteers that came out release a wealth of information on Core domains and I think that many of the island or cluster domains (Souragne, Rokushima Taiyou, Har Akir, etc.) should be given similar treatment.

Instead of an event that has already happened, an adventure (series?) should be released for the Time of Ultimate Darkness, reflecting not just changes to a few domains but the very nature of Ravenloft itself (maybe similar to how that Apocalypse adventure bridged the shift from 2E to 3E). The players should be a part of it like they were able to for the Grand Conjunction, the Requiem and more.

how about:

the domains of ravenloft are a cluster of astral domains floating in the astral sea close to the nine hells. the influence of the nine hells causes the closed nature of ravenloft, and occasionally domains will be pulled in to ravenloft, and occasionally they will spin off in to the astral sea. Ravenloft need change very little, but it can be integrated in to the new cosmology.

Hawken said:

I don't think moving forward 100 years is the answer for Ravenloft. There is still a lot with the 2e/3e material that could be explored whether the mechanics of the game change or not. The gazetteers that came out release a wealth of information on Core domains and I think that many of the island or cluster domains (Souragne, Rokushima Taiyou, Har Akir, etc.) should be given similar treatment.

Instead of an event that has already happened, an adventure (series?) should be released for the Time of Ultimate Darkness, reflecting not just changes to a few domains but the very nature of Ravenloft itself (maybe similar to how that Apocalypse adventure bridged the shift from 2E to 3E). The players should be a part of it like they were able to for the Grand Conjunction, the Requiem and more.

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The problem with that is that with the adventure series you are talking about, you are asking numerous people to be familiar with the current Ravenloft setting and timeline. You are cutting off your new blood and only allowing your old-school players to the table.

On another note, I think you would have to keep the Domains. That's definitely a sacred cow in Ravenloft. You might do something radical like allow the Darklords to leave their Domains, but you'd have to keep Domains in there.

The reason I would consider allowing the Darklords to leave their Domains is because then you could have real interaction between all of the cool Darklord NPCs. However, I could see the campaign working without this and keeping the Domains and Darklord prisons.

Toben the Many said:

The problem with that is that with the adventure series you are talking about, you are asking numerous people to be familiar with the current Ravenloft setting and timeline. You are cutting off your new blood and only allowing your old-school players to the table.

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Why? If the Gazetteers were re-released as rules-neutral setting books, anyone could play in the Domains they wish to. The Core book would have enough of an overview to allow people to get started.

Toben the Many said:

On another note, I think you would have to keep the Domains. That's definitely a sacred cow in Ravenloft. You might do something radical like allow the Darklords to leave their Domains, but you'd have to keep Domains in there.

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Absolutely. The Darklords, the Domains, the Vistani and the Mists are Ravenloft. You can make a cool setting without them, but it wouldn't be Ravenloft. And some good rules on Fear and Madness, of course.

You do need to do something though to reduce what I think of as "the reverse-Elminster problem." The Darklords are too powerful and too all-seeing. The PC's can get despondent with the feeling of "No matter what we do, Strahd's going to waltz in and bust a cap in our asses, so let's not bother being heroes and go get a pint." The Darklords also out-compete all other possible factions within their Domains, resulting in a fairly sterile environment. I think they should be the most powerful power-broker within their Domain, but not a perfectly powerful Tyrant.

I think the main way to do this is to give the Darklords something better to fear / do than bother the PC's all the time. I think Toben's suggestion of allowing war between the Domains is a good one (not the only solution, but a good one). Keep the Domains as (imperfect) prisons, but allow the Darklords to war upon each other absorb the Domains of the loser. Whatever benefit they derive some absorbing a new Domain should be great enough that they'll spend 98% of their time either trying to absorb neighboring Domains (if in a strong position) or defending against any such attacks (if in a weak position). To keep the Domains as prisons though it should be clear that Darklords can only enter Domains immediately neighboring theirs, and only for short periods of time.

Occasionally however a Darklord may end up not being powerful enough to control his new Domains, and parts of it will splinter off into new Domains or be absorbed by neighbors. This will allow for turnover within the campaign and explains why Azalan or whomever hasn't absorbed all of Ravenloft by now - he's reached the limit of what he can control, and he knows it. But that doesn't mean he won't just kill one of his Darklord neighbors if they piss him off too much, so neighbors are still afraid of him.

The best side-effect of preoccupying Darklords with each other is that this allows lots of lesser evils to pop up like toadstools after a rain storm. Werewolves can take over whole villages, infernal cults can establish temples and low-order assassin guilds and blood-thirsty bandits can be a menace that low-level PC's can try to deal with.

I'd also kill outright the idea of Darklord omniscience. If the Darklord wants to know stuff, he should rely on spies. This allows the PC's some space to plot, but also makes them wary of every raven, rat and peasant that wanders by.

New Cosmology
I'm tempted to place Ravenloft is a dark corner of the Feywild. One infected by a "seed of Evil", as the Abyss was. That would be my first choice. My second choice would be to make Ravenloft its own mirror-world. Just as the Feywild and Shadowfell are feral and dead reflections of the real world, respectively, Ravenloft would be an evil reflection of the real world. The landscape would be the same, but the structures and people different. The Mists would allow for travel between Domains and into Ravenloft.

New Races
I wouldn't use Tieflings or Dragonborn, honestly. They seem cool enough, but they don't fit the mood IMO. Maybe Dragonborn would be OK as wanderers from a new Domain that just showed up.

The new Eladrin and Elves are in though, especially as "Shadow Fey." I would not use Drow, but instead have Elves and Eladrin prove themselves fully capable of evil. There should be a dark Eladrin realm ruled by the Morgause, the Queen of Air and Darkness.

New Magic & Classes
I don't think this changes anything of note. Warlocks may work as is, or maybe need to be slightly tweaked. We definitely need a Necromancer of some sort, stat.

I'd also like to see a new Core class (probably a Skill-monkey/Striker) like the Rogue (or maybe just a Rogue-variant), but with less emphasis on burglary and more emphasis on tomb exploring and undead/were-creature killing (think Van Richten meets Indiana Jones). This could possibly be handled with Feats, Talents, Paths, Skill-specials etc. depending on how those work in 4E.