D&D 4E Let's Talk About 4E On Its Own Terms [+]

[Dustin Cooper]

Mostly at-level (2-3). But it's an issue where the controller can't zap them effectively, there's no defender to take the hits, the leaders unable to deal competitive damage, etc. So the combats get scary. But it's not all bad because the players feel challenged. I just feel like they're burning through resources quickly - and at the end of battles they've exhausted every healing power.

I mean, if they're having fun with it, there's nothing inherently wrong with a campaign with just a few challenging combats between long rests.

 

[Fifth Element]

I was with a group that tried 4E. We played about 8-10 sessions, I think? Maybe a little longer? I checked out of 4E forever the moment I hit "I punch a guy. I want to punch him again. Sorry, you can't punch him like that again until the next day/recharge/whatever".

"Sorry, the enemies are on to your tricks. They're ready for that now. You'll have to try something different."

It's all in the framing. If you choose to imagine something in a way that makes it incoherent, of course it's going to seem incoherent.

But to me, anyone who accepts the level of abstraction that hit points have always had in D&D ought to be able to accept the abstraction of encounter powers. Hit points are extremely abstract, and there are many ways to think about them that would render them incoherent. So don't interpret them that way.

 

[FrogReaver]

Mostly at-level (2-3). But it's an issue where the controller can't zap them effectively, there's no defender to take the hits, the leaders unable to deal competitive damage, etc. So the combats get scary. But it's not all bad because the players feel challenged. I just feel like they're burning through resources quickly - and at the end of battles they've exhausted every healing power.

From what I recall of the monster math... An encounter with 4 PC's vs 4 at level 3 standard enemies will probably leave the PCs as a whole taking 110 to 154 Damage... about 50% to hit and about 11 damage per hit with team enemy taking on average about 7 rounds to defeat without daily or action points. That's potentially 10-14 healing surges. Can be more if PCs start spending their actions to do anything other than attack. Your 4 person party probably only has 30 healing surges for the day.

A generic defender would be a small help there, more total healing surges and a bit of defensive savings from the mark/higher ac catch 22. But fundamentally, the real path to better performance for them is going to be ensuring they kill an enemy early in the encounter. If that requires a couple of dailies or a couple of actions points from the group as a whole the encounters will get substantially easier. And combined through 4 encounters they will have a total of 8 action points and 4 daily powers. As a party they can use 2 per encounter if needed and still have plenty left over.

Their real problem IMO is resource hoarding.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

From what I recall of the monster math... An encounter with 4 PC's vs 4 at level 3 standard enemies will probably leave the PCs as a whole taking 110 to 154 Damage... about 50% to hit and about 11 damage per hit with team enemy taking on average about 7 rounds to defeat without daily or action points. That's potentially 10-14 healing surges. Can be more if PCs start spending their actions to do anything other than attack. Your 4 person party probably only has 30 healing surges for the day.

Hmmm, level 3 standard has 48 hit points, and does 11 damage per hit, average. Level 3 PC should hit this monster 60%. Assume half focus fire, 2 PCs should take out one monster at turn 3, and then takedowns will ramp up from there, I'd be surprised if the fight extends beyond round 7, with monster numbers being something like (per round) 4,4,3,2,1,1 and hitting at 50%. That gives us 44, 44, 33, 22, 11, 11 = 82.5 expected total monster damage output. That should probably suck up most all the hit points of 4 level 3 PCs who are not defenders. I'd expect one or two to get knocked down if they lack an effective healer, but assuming there IS such a figure, I'd expect most fights nobody goes down. Also, should the PCs expend some daily resources they should be able to decrease the total monster damage output by at least 1/3!

Obviously all this depends on some modest degree of coordinated play, but nothing extraordinary. Expert groups can easily halve team monster's damage output and come out with effectively a couple HS down, and maybe not even burning any daily resources at all. I mean, this level of fight should be on the easier side...

A generic defender would be a small help there, more total healing surges and a bit of defensive savings from the mark/higher ac catch 22. But fundamentally, the real path to better performance for them is going to be ensuring they kill an enemy early in the encounter. If that requires a couple of dailies or a couple of actions points from the group as a whole the encounters will get substantially easier. And combined through 4 encounters they will have a total of 8 action points and 4 daily powers. As a party they can use 2 per encounter if needed and still have plenty left over.

Their real problem IMO is resource hoarding.

Yeah, I agree this is the essence of decent 4e play is just knowing the balance factor between "I expended something that might be good later" vs "I saved a bunch of HS." That is, at a basic level, the game. Even if you don't focus, etc. and play bad tactics, the same basic considerations still apply.

 

[FrogReaver]

Hmmm, level 3 standard has 48 hit points,

24+8*level. I was thinking the 8*level was additional beyond 1st level but I think you are right. 48 instead of 40.

and does 11 damage per hit, average.

That's what my numbers were based on as well.

Level 3 PC should hit this monster 60%.

I thought it was 50% but it's been so long i'm probably off. What should the monsters chance to hit an average AC PC be?

Assume half focus fire, 2 PCs should take out one monster at turn 3, and then takedowns will ramp up from there, I'd be surprised if the fight extends beyond round 7, with monster numbers being something like (per round) 4,4,3,2,1,1 and hitting at 50%. That gives us 44, 44, 33, 22, 11, 11 = 82.5 expected total monster damage output. That should probably suck up most all the hit points of 4 level 3 PCs who are not defenders. I'd expect one or two to get knocked down if they lack an effective healer, but assuming there IS such a figure, I'd expect most fights nobody goes down. Also, should the PCs expend some daily resources they should be able to decrease the total monster damage output by at least 1/3!

Anyways using your numbers.
48 hp
60% chance to hit
Assuming about 11 PC damage on an at will power, 16 with encounter.

A straight HP vs DPR analysis has the fight lasting an average of 6.4 rounds on average (assuming encounter powers are all used). I'm with you there.

However, there's a fairly good chance that the attacks taken could easily look something like 4,4,4,3,2,1 = 99 expected damage taken by PC's. (1st enemy doesn't fall till it gets it's attack on the third round). *Or even worse with a bit of cold dice on encounter powers.

Obviously all this depends on some modest degree of coordinated play, but nothing extraordinary. Expert groups can easily halve team monster's damage output and come out with effectively a couple HS down, and maybe not even burning any daily resources at all. I mean, this level of fight should be on the easier side...

I find it important to note it doesn't have to be pre-cordination. As long as each player is adjusting their actions to what their allies have done then that is plenty.

Yeah, I agree this is the essence of decent 4e play is just knowing the balance factor between "I expended something that might be good later" vs "I saved a bunch of HS." That is, at a basic level, the game. Even if you don't focus, etc. and play bad tactics, the same basic considerations still apply.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

24+8*level. I was thinking the 8*level was additional beyond 1st level but I think you are right. 48 instead of 40.


That's what my numbers were based on as well.

I thought it was 50% but it's been so long i'm probably off. What should the monsters chance to hit an average AC PC be?

Anyways using your numbers.
48 hp
60% chance to hit
Assuming about 11 PC damage on an at will power, 16 with encounter.

A straight HP vs DPR analysis has the fight lasting an average of 6.4 rounds on average (assuming encounter powers are all used). I'm with you there.

However, there's a fairly good chance that the attacks taken could easily look something like 4,4,4,3,2,1 = 99 expected damage taken by PC's. (1st enemy doesn't fall till it gets it's attack on the third round). *Or even worse with a bit of cold dice on encounter powers.


I find it important to note it doesn't have to be pre-cordination. As long as each player is adjusting their actions to what their allies have done then that is plenty.

Yeah I think we're definitely pretty much on the same page here. I think 60% hit rate is what is aimed at. Obviously if your builds are off some you might fall below that, but I didn't really fully account for things like conditions and buffs that SHOULD help the PCs on balance. It's all pretty rough numbers, but probably close.

The real question is what happens when the players have bad dice or something. 4 man parties are going to be a little more swingy, etc. one option is to add a companion or two. That could fix the Defender hole. They work well in the leader slot too.

 

[Zaukrie]

I miss 4e. I like 5e fine, but 4e was my nearly perfect system.

 

[Retreater]

I miss 4e. I like 5e fine, but 4e was my nearly perfect system.

It's still out there. Very playable in the modern day. Give it a shot.

 

[Zaukrie]

It's still out there. Very playable in the modern day. Give it a shot.

don't have the players, and don't have time for more games....but thanks!

 

[Retreater]

don't have the players, and don't have time for more games....but thanks!

I converted my group of 5e players to 4e - so anything's possible.
Good luck!