John a.k.a Sir D
First Post
Kallikrates said:
Who said that I wanted to have a predetermined meeting with someone? I hate those. They seem awkward and unnatural.
Chew on this.
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Who said that I wanted to have a predetermined meeting with someone? I hate those. They seem awkward and unnatural.
Mortonia
First Post
Having read the various opinions, and points that preceded this post, I decided I needed to respond. I'm, not going to quote anyone or anything specific. If my points resonate with you, spend some time examining why. If they don't...then they probably don't apply, so try not to be offended.
Disclaimer: Unlike some of the other people here, I feel no need to pull my punches, or be especially nice to people. I'm a middle-aged parent of three, one of whom is a teenager. Blame my lack of good-natured forgiveness for whining on that. If this sort of thing is liable to offend you, please stop reading now. I don't want to be responsible for any of you stroking out or anything.
1. On the CoC: You knew there was a CoC when you joined the site. You had to agree to it to get an account (IIRC). It reminds you of it every time you log into the lounge. I have played at moderated sites, and I have played on unmoderated sites. I am of two minds about which I like better, but frankly that isn't the point. This site has a CoC, and is rated at (or near) what would be considered PG-13. If you don't agree with that, feel free not to play here. I doubt we'll miss your constant complaining about something that you knew was in effect when you signed up.
2. On attacking the Magi: This is like insulting your local volunteer fire department. While they will come and put out the fire at your house, don't expect them to be nice to you about it. One day some of you will come to the realization that they are nice enough to host this site and manage it for us. We are all guests in their house - some of us need start acting like it.
3. "I don't like the site because...": That's your right. Feel free to not like it. Feel free to petition for change. Feel free to get all your friends together and sit down with the Magi and say "This is what we really wish you guys would change."
4. "...but nothing ever changes.": That's their right. Not yours, not mine. It belongs to the folks who own, manage, and dedicate their spare time to making sure it stays up, and stays if not perfect, then at least fun. If you're not having fun, I refer you back to point #1, and point #3. But bear in mind, that they aren't going to change the site in a way that makes it more fun for four people, and less fun for forty.
5. "You suck, you're just taking their side.": As amusing as those sorts of accusations are to me - there are no sides here. It's not us versus them, we're not here to stick it to "the man", and the Magi really aren't out to get us. (Tyranny? Really? I mean honestly.)
6. Harassment, Da Rules, and Enforcement: Trellian did a good job of laying all of this out. I'm sad that some complaints fell through the cracks, but that happens in real life too. The world isn't perfect. However, as a community site, we also have a responsibility that if we know someone is being harassed to also say something about it. Contact a Magi via IM if there isn't one online. Send your own e-mail of complaint. Then it stops being the word of one player, and starts becoming the voice of the masses.
That being said, don't expect the Magi to just enforce the rules without proof or cause. It's just like court - innocent until proven guilty. Believe me, the other way round is a lot less fun for everyone involved.
Well...I think I've ranted on long enough. If any of you would like to cast some stones in my direction, I'll be happy to address them in an orderly fashion.
Side Note: You'll notice the distinct lack of smiley faces, winkie smiles, or any other indicator that I am the least bit kidding around. Aside from Ruthia who at least seems to have the legitimate basis for complaint (and that's the best I can do, having no details on the situation she's talking about), the rest of it comes off to me as unadulterated whining. If you want change, you have to be willing to talk about change. That requires that you be willing to do more than &^%$* about the problems. You have to offer solutions - and no, getting rid of the CoC isn't a solution. As I said, if you don't like it, refer to point #1.
Disclaimer: Unlike some of the other people here, I feel no need to pull my punches, or be especially nice to people. I'm a middle-aged parent of three, one of whom is a teenager. Blame my lack of good-natured forgiveness for whining on that. If this sort of thing is liable to offend you, please stop reading now. I don't want to be responsible for any of you stroking out or anything.
1. On the CoC: You knew there was a CoC when you joined the site. You had to agree to it to get an account (IIRC). It reminds you of it every time you log into the lounge. I have played at moderated sites, and I have played on unmoderated sites. I am of two minds about which I like better, but frankly that isn't the point. This site has a CoC, and is rated at (or near) what would be considered PG-13. If you don't agree with that, feel free not to play here. I doubt we'll miss your constant complaining about something that you knew was in effect when you signed up.
2. On attacking the Magi: This is like insulting your local volunteer fire department. While they will come and put out the fire at your house, don't expect them to be nice to you about it. One day some of you will come to the realization that they are nice enough to host this site and manage it for us. We are all guests in their house - some of us need start acting like it.
3. "I don't like the site because...": That's your right. Feel free to not like it. Feel free to petition for change. Feel free to get all your friends together and sit down with the Magi and say "This is what we really wish you guys would change."
4. "...but nothing ever changes.": That's their right. Not yours, not mine. It belongs to the folks who own, manage, and dedicate their spare time to making sure it stays up, and stays if not perfect, then at least fun. If you're not having fun, I refer you back to point #1, and point #3. But bear in mind, that they aren't going to change the site in a way that makes it more fun for four people, and less fun for forty.
5. "You suck, you're just taking their side.": As amusing as those sorts of accusations are to me - there are no sides here. It's not us versus them, we're not here to stick it to "the man", and the Magi really aren't out to get us. (Tyranny? Really? I mean honestly.)
6. Harassment, Da Rules, and Enforcement: Trellian did a good job of laying all of this out. I'm sad that some complaints fell through the cracks, but that happens in real life too. The world isn't perfect. However, as a community site, we also have a responsibility that if we know someone is being harassed to also say something about it. Contact a Magi via IM if there isn't one online. Send your own e-mail of complaint. Then it stops being the word of one player, and starts becoming the voice of the masses.
That being said, don't expect the Magi to just enforce the rules without proof or cause. It's just like court - innocent until proven guilty. Believe me, the other way round is a lot less fun for everyone involved.
Well...I think I've ranted on long enough. If any of you would like to cast some stones in my direction, I'll be happy to address them in an orderly fashion.
Side Note: You'll notice the distinct lack of smiley faces, winkie smiles, or any other indicator that I am the least bit kidding around. Aside from Ruthia who at least seems to have the legitimate basis for complaint (and that's the best I can do, having no details on the situation she's talking about), the rest of it comes off to me as unadulterated whining. If you want change, you have to be willing to talk about change. That requires that you be willing to do more than &^%$* about the problems. You have to offer solutions - and no, getting rid of the CoC isn't a solution. As I said, if you don't like it, refer to point #1.
John a.k.a Sir D
First Post
Mortonia said:
I find it sort of funny that you say that we are all whining when you are as well. But that's sort of what happens on these posts. And I've been willing to talk about change forever, plus I've actually suggested change. It doesn't even get considered. Also, back to the point about the Magi's being a volunteer fire department, that's not entirely true. It's almost impossible to become a Magi, quite easy to volunteer for the fire department. It seems more like a volunteering council that decides things together, which isn't a bad method. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to insult the Magi's or anything, but they do seem to be a unit that is very hard to become one of. If you noticed, they wanted more Magi's and not a new one has really popped up.
MistyThorin
First Post
John a.k.a Sir D said:
Speaking as someone who chose not to apply to become a Magi due to personal obligations not leaving me enough time to devote to the position... maybe they didn't get any applications. I can think of at least four people besides myself who considered applying, but ultimately decided their time was limited enough and that they did not want to spend what little ISRP time they had available on duty as Magi.
It's also possible that any applicants they did get may not have qualified for some reason or another. I would call it reasonable, for example, to insist that a Magi have his/her own computer with certain minimum standards for operating systems, etc. But such a requirement could exclude, say, college students who have the time and otherwise qualify for the position, but whose only Internet access is via the school computer labs.
Just some possibilities to think about.
*cheers on Mortonia*
Hurray! No pulling punches.
Honestly, though, this is getting out of hand.
I love the setting rules and CoC and it's a large part of why I have played here for so many years.
As Gabe has said, the Sigil and Faerun rooms on some nights are packed. Just the other night I was alone in the garden with Octavion for an hour or two...no complaints here!
Perhaps you need to find a site that has players that have similar schedules. Or perhaps maybe you brain-stormers/'complainers'/freedom-fighters could discuss a time to meet in Sigil or such? It's not that hard if you actually attempt it...
I have never been mistreated or received a bad judgment from any of the Magi. They've all been consistent and fair in their many rulings.
Perhaps it's about time that people moved on if they don't like things here? Perhaps start a new site or do what everyone else has suggested...go to an old one.
Hurray! No pulling punches.
Honestly, though, this is getting out of hand.
I love the setting rules and CoC and it's a large part of why I have played here for so many years.
As Gabe has said, the Sigil and Faerun rooms on some nights are packed. Just the other night I was alone in the garden with Octavion for an hour or two...no complaints here!
Perhaps you need to find a site that has players that have similar schedules. Or perhaps maybe you brain-stormers/'complainers'/freedom-fighters could discuss a time to meet in Sigil or such? It's not that hard if you actually attempt it...I have never been mistreated or received a bad judgment from any of the Magi. They've all been consistent and fair in their many rulings.
Perhaps it's about time that people moved on if they don't like things here? Perhaps start a new site or do what everyone else has suggested...go to an old one.
Magi_Gabriel
Foppish Technocrat
My apologies for taking a while to get to addressing Ruthia's concerns in the post, as you can probably imagine this issue has put a notable workload on my plate and I've been shifting through it as efficiently as I know how to.
There is a thread recently posted specifically for requesting clarification of CoC issues, so far I've skimmed it and can find no questions about what is a familiar or what are the rules on nudity.
If you don't request clarification on these issues we can't clarify them. If you request them privately we'll clarify privately, if you request publicly we'll clarify publicly.
If you are being harassed and you're unhappy with the way the magi who dealt with it then you can email me, email Siani or email us both. (That matter is covered at the start of the thread).
It is hard to become a Magi (though easy to apply to be one) for very good reasons.
Firstly, as part of their job all Magi have access to moderately sensitive information such as chat logs, IP addresses and the personal contact details of every other Magi. You wouldn't want us giving out this information to the general public, so we have to be careful who we let see it as a Magi.
Secondly, they have special chat and forum powers that come (as all power should) with special responsibilities. That means we have to be sure anyone we make a Magi will not use these powers improperly or for personal reasons. You don't want a rogue Magi to ban all your friends because they said something hurtful to that magi out of uniform, so we have to screen carefully for that.
Thirdly, we have standards to maintain. If every Magi you talk to is lucid, well spoken and follows procedures in place to ensure people get treated fairly then you will by default assume anyone labelled Magi is going to do so. If we were to allow almost anyone to become a Magi then we would lose the expectations associated with the position and the respect attached too.
Forthly, the more people who are involved the longer it takes to reach a decision. You would have seen this at Wizards where each major decision had to be passed up each level of the chain and discussed by a committee before getting approval to move up a level until final approval. We proposed the The Meeting Place and finalized the specifications, it took two years for the room to go live.
With a single Setting Co-Ordinator in charge, it took about six weeks to work out the specifications for the Bazaar and then two weeks for the Cage to go live when that additional was proposed.
More people also means more possibility for individual interpretations of rules which creates more confusion, more chaos and more people wanting to be moderators so they can "set things right".
Lastly, we can only have so many Magi because there's only so many patrons about, if the site doubled in size next week we'd look for more Magi then. But as it is we can't really put out too many more Magi without the moderator to patron ratio getting to the point where people feel they're more like a nobility class than a group of people there to help.
We deliberately try to keep the place open to players and make them feel that it's their playground, that feel is hard to maintain when say a third of the the room is known to be moderator who could be watching you and reporting back to The Man.
There is a thread recently posted specifically for requesting clarification of CoC issues, so far I've skimmed it and can find no questions about what is a familiar or what are the rules on nudity.
If you don't request clarification on these issues we can't clarify them. If you request them privately we'll clarify privately, if you request publicly we'll clarify publicly.
If you are being harassed and you're unhappy with the way the magi who dealt with it then you can email me, email Siani or email us both. (That matter is covered at the start of the thread).
Volunteers for the fire department receive screening just like Magi applicants do. Do to impracticality we don't require applicants to pass extreme fitness tests or legal background checks. Like the fire department we only take applicants when we have a space for them and the time and resources to train them.
It is hard to become a Magi (though easy to apply to be one) for very good reasons.
Firstly, as part of their job all Magi have access to moderately sensitive information such as chat logs, IP addresses and the personal contact details of every other Magi. You wouldn't want us giving out this information to the general public, so we have to be careful who we let see it as a Magi.
Secondly, they have special chat and forum powers that come (as all power should) with special responsibilities. That means we have to be sure anyone we make a Magi will not use these powers improperly or for personal reasons. You don't want a rogue Magi to ban all your friends because they said something hurtful to that magi out of uniform, so we have to screen carefully for that.
Thirdly, we have standards to maintain. If every Magi you talk to is lucid, well spoken and follows procedures in place to ensure people get treated fairly then you will by default assume anyone labelled Magi is going to do so. If we were to allow almost anyone to become a Magi then we would lose the expectations associated with the position and the respect attached too.
Forthly, the more people who are involved the longer it takes to reach a decision. You would have seen this at Wizards where each major decision had to be passed up each level of the chain and discussed by a committee before getting approval to move up a level until final approval. We proposed the The Meeting Place and finalized the specifications, it took two years for the room to go live.
With a single Setting Co-Ordinator in charge, it took about six weeks to work out the specifications for the Bazaar and then two weeks for the Cage to go live when that additional was proposed.
More people also means more possibility for individual interpretations of rules which creates more confusion, more chaos and more people wanting to be moderators so they can "set things right".
Lastly, we can only have so many Magi because there's only so many patrons about, if the site doubled in size next week we'd look for more Magi then. But as it is we can't really put out too many more Magi without the moderator to patron ratio getting to the point where people feel they're more like a nobility class than a group of people there to help.
We deliberately try to keep the place open to players and make them feel that it's their playground, that feel is hard to maintain when say a third of the the room is known to be moderator who could be watching you and reporting back to The Man.
Ruthia
First Post
Magi_Gabriel said:
Thank you for taking time to acctually read what I wrote Gabe. As a long time RPer here it's nice to get listened too for once. Honestly no I didn't put those examples up on your CoC clarification thread because 1: The familiars rule is setting not CoC orrianted and 2: I was only using those said examples to show where confusion may be coming up with said rules and 3: As I stated, I hardly RP here anymore. Though maybe you need to peek at things like that again....I don't know maybe pick a groups of like..ten differnt RPers and have them interput the rules for you? Then go from their interputiations to see how well the rules are explained? I know your super busy and all so it's hard to do but maybe one of the others who has a bit more time could help you? Just my thoughts, one way to check how people are seeing the rules.
As for the harrassment thing. Since it wasn't dealt with and I was blown off by others I dealt with it my own way. I avoid RPing here. That is my choice as an player. I will say in some ways I miss this place, had a lot of funs times here, but I don't like watching over my shoulder thinking "Great what is So and So going to do to me today? Are they just going to sling &%$^ at me or are they going to report my every little action to a Magi?" In all honesty thats to much stress, I came here to have fun not feel singled out. Yes I know I should have reported the actions that I felt were wrong to You or Siani....but honestly I was sort of getting the impression you Magi are above the law. *shrugs* Yes I know thats not the case, I'm just stating this from the view of the lowly player.
John a.k.a Sir D
First Post
MistyThorin said:
I applied and I know of at least one other person who applied, and to be quite honest...I'm very surprised she didn't become a Magi.
John a.k.a Sir D
First Post
Magi_Gabriel said:
Then why did you ask for applications of Magi, which was never actually filled?
I've been anxiously awaiting the new Magi, just because I think it would be nice for another one to be around. There are only like, what, 3-4 active Magi? And some of them are -rarely- on. Not that I'm complaining of course.
John a.k.a Sir D
First Post
Personally, I think that you should hire a Magi that could be on more often, but I've suggested that once in the past and it was just shut down- like all of my other ideas, not to mention most of everyone else's.
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