Forked Thread: Build your own Minion - How to fix 'wrong' minion stats?

Jhaelen · Jul 10, 2008

Jhaelen said:
Maybe. But how do you explain the ability score modifiers? They don't include a bonus of one-half their level. I.e. either their level is wrong or the ability score modifiers are wrong.

Which is it? There's no way to tell. Therefore it's not possible to deduce any reliable statistical information from the zombie rotter.

Here's a list of the minions that suffer from the same problem:
- cyclops guard; p.46
- horde ghoul & abyssal ghoul myrmidon; p.118ff
- hobgoblin grunt & warrior; p.138
- grimlock minion & follower; p.148
- human rabble; p.162
- kruthik hatchling; p.170
- orc drudge & warrior; p.203
- troglodyte warrior; p.272
- snaketongue initiate; p.274

Since the original thread seems to have died, I thought I'd bring up this issue in a separate thread. Is this bothering anyone else?
If so, what have you done to remedy the situation?
Has anyone found a (better) way to check if a minion's statblock is as intended?

All of this wouldn't be so much of an issue if the designers hadn't 'forgotten' to include some design guidelines for minions in the DMG. I don't like having to guess about their intentions.

Mr Jack · Jul 10, 2008

What difference does it make? If a Zombie Rotter was supposed to be level 1, the PCs are getting a whole 6xp extra per rotter. Woot!

Starbuck_II · Jul 10, 2008

Here's a list of the minions that suffer from the same problem:
- cyclops guard; p.46: What is wrong with it?
Based on soldier turned into minion.

I'll admit their Ability check mods are appear off.
They appear to be Abil + 1/2 Level -2.
Example 22 Str (+6) + 7 (1/2 14) -2=11.

- horde ghoul & abyssal ghoul myrmidon; p.118
Horde Ghoul appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -1.
Str 17 (3) + 6 (1/2 13) -1 = 8.

Abbyssal Ghoul appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -1.
Str 27 (8) + 11 (1/2 23) -1 = 18.

- hobgoblin grunt & warrior; p.138
Grunt Hobgoblin appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -1.
Str 18 (4) + 1 (1/2 3) -1 = 4.

Warrior Hobgoblin appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -1.
Str 19 (4) + 8 (1/2 8) -1 = 7.

- grimlock minion & follower; p.148
Grimlock Minion appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -2.
Str 17 (3) + 7 (1/2 14) -2 = 7.

Grimlock Folllower appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -3.
Str 17 (3) + 11 (1/2 22) -3 = 11.
Something is wrong with the Follower... the math works but why 3?

- human rabble; p.162
Human Rabble appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -1.
Str 14 (2) + 1 (1/2 2) -1 = 2.

- kruthik hatchling; p.170
Kruthik Hatchling appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -1.
Str 13 (1) + 1 (1/2 2) -1 = 1.

- orc drudge & warrior; p.203
Orc Drudge appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -2.
Str 16 (3) + 2 (1/2 4) -2 = 3.

Orc Warrior appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -1.
Str 17 (3) + 4 (1/2 9) -1 = 6.

- troglodyte warrior; p.252
Trog Warrior appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -1.
Str 18 (4) + 6 (1/2 12) -1 = 9.

- snaketongue initiate; p.274
Snaketongue Initiate appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -0.
Str 16 (3) + 3 (1/2 7) -0 = 6.
Wait, this is verbatum how to generate non-minion... did you mean Zealot?

Final analysis: for Minions
Most Ability checks -1 at end. or -2 at end if a Cyclops or Grimlock or Orc Drudge (Warrior is -1).

Jhaelen · Jul 12, 2008

Mr Jack said:
What difference does it make? If a Zombie Rotter was supposed to be level 1, the PCs are getting a whole 6xp extra per rotter. Woot!

That's not my point. The point is this: If the level is wrong for this list of minions, does this also mean that their stats are wrong? I.e. if the ability modifiers indicate the minion should really have a lower/higher level, do I have to adjust their attacks, defenses and damage as well, to make them an appropriate encounter? Adding or substracting one or two points to or from any of these _is_ significant.

Starbuck_II said:
- cyclops guard; p.46: What is wrong with it?
Based on soldier turned into minion.

Well, a 14th level soldier should have AC 30, base defenses of 26 and an attack of +21. The only thing that matches is the damage.

Starbuck_II said:
I'll admit their Ability check mods are appear off.
They appear to be Abil + 1/2 Level -2.
Example 22 Str (+6) + 7 (1/2 14) -2=11.

Yep. This. That's what made me start to question all of their other stats. Let's see:
Assuming the correct level was level 10/11 (then the ability modifiers would be correct), then as a soldier minion it should have AC 26/27, base defenses of 22/23 and an attack of +17/18. Looks a lot closer to what we see in the stat block, right?

Starbuck_II said:
Grimlock Folllower appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -3.
Str 17 (3) + 11 (1/2 22) -3 = 11.
Something is wrong with the Follower... the math works but why 3?

Well, assuming this minion was based on a brute, at level 22 it should have all defenses at 34, an attack bonus of +25 and do 10 damage. That's pretty close. So in this case it seems it's the ability modifiers aren't correct.

Starbuck_II said:
- snaketongue initiate; p.274
Snaketongue Initiate appears to be Abil + 1/2 Level -0.
Str 16 (3) + 3 (1/2 7) -0 = 6.
Wait, this is verbatum how to generate non-minion... did you mean Zealot?

Ah, yes. Sorry about that. The Zealot is the one that is off:
Str 16 (3) + 6 (1/2 12) -1 = 8.

Starbuck_II said:
Final analysis: for Minions
Most Ability checks -1 at end. or -2 at end if a Cyclops or Grimlock or Orc Drudge (Warrior is -1).

Hmm. I'm not sure right now if you noticed I only listed the minions that have ability modifiers that are off? There's a total of 39 minions in the MM, so there's 25 minions that have correct ability modifiers.

So...why would they arbitrarily decide to reduce the ability modifiers for some minions and not for others?

Oh, I almost forgot: Thanks for taking the time to make this analysis, Starbuck_II!

Starbuck_II · Jul 12, 2008

Jhaelen said:
Hmm. I'm not sure right now if you noticed I only listed the minions that have ability modifiers that are off? There's a total of 39 minions in the MM, so there's 25 minions that have correct ability modifiers.

So...why would they arbitrarily decide to reduce the ability modifiers for some minions and not for others?

Oh, I almost forgot: Thanks for taking the time to make this analysis, Starbuck_II!

No problem. Yeah, it is weird that a 1/3rd of the minions have weird modifiers.