Retailer's Stance on PDF Deals

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
My apologies for the above post.:eek:


Back to the subject ... Although some may, I think most people probably don't check out a book just to see if they want to buy the pdf.

In fact, for me it's the opposite. Sometimes I'll check out the pdf first, in order to see if I want to buy the book. But, I'll only do this if it's a book that sounds interesting in the first place. I like having hardcopies and a pdf though, anyways.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Inferno!

Explorer
Jane Witt of The Keep on RPG PDFs
‘Strike Me with a Silly Stick’
Published: 04/09/2009, Last Updated: 04/10/2009 05:29am

Jane Witt of The Keep in Fort Wayne, Indiana read our recent article on RPG PDFs (see “RPG PDF Publishers Double Down”) and addresses the companies discounting PDFs:



Strike me with a silly stick, but why as a brick & mortar business owner should I make a business decision to stock your products in my store? I already have difficulty selling your books. In a tough economy, where every dollar counts, explain to me the benefit of stocking your products since you have now become my major competition....Why should I give you free marketing? More importantly, why should I continue to carry your products in the store and expect my staff to educate themselves with your products in preparation to detail these items to a customer for you?

Why should you do any of this? Well maybe because you claim to be a game store?

I and possibly many others, will be forced to reassess our decision to offer your products in our stores.

Brilliant idea! A game that doesn't stock games.

If you only plan to stock games from companies like WotC that neglect to offer pdf sales, why should anyone bother buying from you instead of Borders or Barnes and Noble (not to mention Amazon). The remaining FLGS in my area is very similar to what you're describing. They stock only the biggest titles (the same ones Borders and B&N stock) plus puzzles and board games. In addition to their poor RPG selection, the staff is routinely more interesting in checking their eBay auctions than actually helping a living, breathing customer. Consequently, the only things I ever purchase there are deeply discounted clearance items.
 

Mark

CreativeMountainGames.com
Man, that's just crap!

Not to slow down the motility of this thread too much, but ...

... if the filter is that restrictive, well that just stinks.

May as well just flush all expectations of free and open communication.


:p


Whoa. Back up there a bit. No need to run off like that, just go with the flow.
 


icarussc

First Post
Maybe I'm in the minority, but although I always skim/read a book before I buy it, I've never looked at a book on a shelf and then decided to buy the pdf. I *have* done the opposite.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
* Arguments about the lack of need for LGSes are often viewed from the point of view of individuals who post on online forums like this one: they're skewed from an observer bias perspective. Put another way, it's probably a no-brainer to presume that the percentage of people who never walked into an FLGS and don't think they are key to the growth of the hobby and started online is higher amongst folks who post on an online forum like ENWorld (or even Wizards) than it is in real life. Put a third way, if Wizards' estimates of its playerbase of 6 million, divided in half to 3 million(because they are probably exaggerating) are accurate, if all these folks posted on ENWorld and Wizards' boards the systems would crash under the volume rapidly. :)

Very true; however that doesn't paint the whole picture.

We're not just talking EN World and WotC's site; we're talking thousands of sites across the web. EN World alone has about 150,000 unique visitors per month - as you say a drop in the ocean - but consider all those other sites.

A LOT of people use the internet in conjunction with their hobby, whether that be football news, knitting patterns, or RPGs. These days, it's remarkably common.

For each person who browses the web for their game, they probably (on average) know or game with a few others. This creates an enormous network.

I think that if we take "RPGs on the internet" as a whole (not concentrating on one site), you'd find a sizeable percentage. Especially since gamers and geekier than, say, football fans.

Anecdotally, of course, perceptions are skewed: FLGS owners tend to meet the folks who like to use FLGS, and web admins tend to interact with those who like the web. It would be easy for either to become trapped in that "bubble".
 

Silvercat Moonpaw

Adventurer
On the field of "skimming game store stock to buy PDFs" where do I stand?

Yes, I do it. I'm a very tight-fisted person, so if I can get an electronic copy of something for less than the printed version I want it. But if my LGS has a physical copy to look through I'm not gonna pass up the opportunity to take a look.

(I would like to take the time to explain the context of my answer:
1) My LGS is a Borders which never has any game books I'm interested in.
2) I'd buy them off Amazon anyway, so PDFs aren't loosing them my sales any more than usual.
3) I buy very many of my game books from Green Ronin, who releases their PDFs a month or more before the print version so I buy the thing without having any chance of encountering it in a game store.)
 
Last edited:

gamersgambit

First Post
First looking at that ludicrous statement about trying a physical copy before buying a PDF...nonsense. I want a real example of a person who does that because I don't know of any.

I've had one person, and probably a bunch *more* people who don't mention it but do it anyway, come to my store to look at a book not easily found in a Barnes and Noble, and come right out and tell me that he wasn't going to buy it but wanted to look at it before he bought it online. Needless to say, I ejected him from the store, but I'm sure it happens more often than I'd like. I know I cannot compete with online retailers.

Does this happen with PDFs bought legally? I don't actually know how many PDFs there are available legally out there for books I sell. I presume it's a possibility, but with a low order of probability. The sort of people who would do that are much more likely to simply obtain an illegal PDF and browse THAT than stop at my store to do the same. I think that maybe people check out stuff before they download it illegally (if it takes a while to pirate), but I don't think they'd tell me about that.

So...unless I do that, if I want a free feel I can just go to Barnes and Noble, because as it currently stands these gaming stores don't take risks, so they don't stock much that you can't buy (or just feel) at a major chain bookseller.

I am blessed with a distributor with a one-day ship from my store that has just about anything I want. Those lines I don't carry, I can get rapidly. I carry a small selection of smaller volume items (White Wolf books, L5R, Hero system, RIFTS, Traveller, Shadowrun, mainly) but not a lot of them. I'm also a convincing salesperson. :) That being said, you are likely very very right in general about most FLGSes.
 

gamersgambit

First Post
Strike me with a silly stick, but why as a brick & mortar business owner should I make a business decision to stock your products in my store? I already have difficulty selling your books. In a tough economy, where every dollar counts, explain to me the benefit of stocking your products since you have now become my major competition....Why should I give you free marketing? More importantly, why should I continue to carry your products in the store and expect my staff to educate themselves with your products in preparation to detail these items to a customer for you?

What she's saying holds some truth. Consider that FLGSes are in general changing their models to reflect the current economy. I offer events in my store. The best margin item I have in store is a bottle of water, which retails for 15 cents and that I sell for a dollar. I also sell used video games, and while the margin isn't huge, it's better than RPGs.

What the publishers don't get when they make SALE SALE SALE decisions is that we FLGS owners would LOVE to support them. I don't know any FLGS owners who started their businesses to become rich. It's a foolish choice. I could be making a lot more money (and have) doing something else...but I chose this career because I was willing to take a hit in potential earnings to support a hobby. I don't bemoan this choice. I do not, however, intend to LOSE money doing what I do. But the point she raises is valid in that what I'd like to do (support and sell their games), becomes much more difficult when they don't promote their things in my store and make them available dirt cheap via the internet.

Consider that this wouldn't (and isn't) a problem for publishers who don't put out physical copies of stuff...but these are folks who, apparently, WANT me to carry their physical books. If they didn't, that's fine. But if they DO, then why are they shooting me in the foot?


Eric Mona (on the above-referenced blogger's comments) sez:

Also, while we're on the subject, I should mention that the Pathfinder RPG Beta Playtest Edition was a hobby exclusive, and was not solicited to the "big box" clients serviced by our book distributor. Given that that product had the highest sales (and cost to produce) of any product Paizo published last year, I think this is a significant example of our support for the hobby market.

Now this is extremely disingenuous. It's available on Amazon. But more than that, the odds a "big box" retailer would buy his product (or sell it in any numbers) are very low.

Don't get me wrong, I like Pathfinder. I have a small customer base that does, too. But for all his expressed support of small retailers, amongst my customers, he does more business in subscription-based, convention-based and online sales than I bet he does on the retail level. There's nothing wrong with this--many, if not most, Pathfinder buyers I know learned about his products because they were tracking alternatives when 4th edition came out on Paizo's website. But claiming to be a huge supporter of LGSes would be much better if Pathfinder offered us some marketing support, as Goodman Games does.

It wouldn't frickin kill him (or for that matter, White Wolf) to put a Retailer Locator on his frickin website, either. Green Ronin does it. Wizards does it. Telling me you support retailers on the one hand and then not doing anything, really, about it...that's a bit of a problem in my mind.
 

Mark

CreativeMountainGames.com
(. . .) offered us some marketing support, as Goodman Games does.

(. . .) put a Retailer Locator on his [.] website


Can you, please, delineate as many ways as possible that you consider a publisher to be supporting the B&M locations, such as the store locator, and also detail the ways Goodman Games does so?
 

Remove ads

Top