Forked Thread: Proposal: Retraining for New Material

renau1g · Jun 16, 2009

Forked from: Proposal: Retraining for New Material

Lord Sessadore said:
TwoHeads re-opened the discussion, but I don't think anyone's actually proposed something yet. This is the same thread that was used for the original overhaul proposal, so perhaps we should fork to a new thread for the official proposal to change things?

TwoHeadsBarking said:
In my mind, there should be two types of overhauls. The first is sort of a "oops, can I take that back?" sort of thing, where you're correcting a "mistake". The idea is that your character concept stays the same, but the mechanics change, either because you screwed up stat allocation, or the class you really wanted to play wasn't available, so you chose the next best fit. So this would let you reset pretty much everything but race and gender. In-character, it's not that your guy used to be a wizard and now is a sorcerer; it's that he's always been a sorcerer.

Here we go. A formal proposal for this.

TwoHeadsBarking · Jun 16, 2009

An official version of my proposal might look like this:

Once during a character's career they may undergo an overhaul, allowing them to change the following:

Skills
Feats
Ability Scores
Class Features
Background Bonuses
Powers
Class

The overhaul must be approved as per the normal rules for character approval, and requires DM permission if the character is involved in an adventure. In addition, if you wish to change your class, you must pass a proposal in which you describe why such a change is necessary.

Note that I took out the "must be done by level 2" part. New content is constantly being released, and I don't think we should cut people off from it just because they've been playing their character for a while.

covaithe · Jun 16, 2009

Eh. I don't know. I'm just not that excited about allowing a class change as part of the "oops" option.

When you change class, that affects almost everything on your character sheet. Even more than changing ability scores would. From a character review perspective, it's a completely new sheet.

And something rings a little hollow to me about the idea that it will be common to have a concept for a character, pick the wrong class, and have the right class become clear and/or available before level 2. That seems... rare and exceptional. Do people actually do this? Frequently?

I'm in favor of allowing ability score changes, but class changes is too far IMO.

Anyway, that's my thinking at the moment. I'm not sure how strongly I feel about it; I might could be persuaded.

TwoHeadsBarking · Jun 16, 2009

covaithe said:
And something rings a little hollow to me about the idea that it will be common to have a concept for a character, pick the wrong class, and have the right class become clear and/or available before level 2. That seems... rare and exceptional. Do people actually do this? Frequently?

Um, sorry if I don't understand, but this doesn't seem to be in opposition to my proposal. It sounds (well, reads) like you're saying you have an issue with the "by level 2" part, which I struck out.

Anyway, it has happened here, twice. FireInTheDust and SeaPainter both expressed a desire to change their class from Wizard to something else. Looking to the future, Rogue to Assassin wouldn't surprise me either, although that's mostly because I have no idea how the two are going to be different. I agree that it would be rare, and there's a reason why it falls under more scrutiny than the rest.

Basically, I think there should be some mechanism for class change, and having it require a proposal and use up your overhaul seemed like a good idea.

covaithe · Jun 16, 2009

Your reply slipped in, I was responding to #0.

Not requiring that it be done before level 2 changes things a little, but... eh.

There is a mechanism for class change: retirement. It even has a built-in cost (*): you come out with one fewer magic items than you would have had before, and likely lose a (probably small) bit of XP. The name of the option, as well as the text in the charter, makes it sound like your character has to go away and a different one come in its place, but there's no reason you couldn't use it as a mechanical do-over for the same character. You could even do it mid-adventure (with DM approval, yadda yadda) without losing continuity. The wording of the charter gives judges options if they feel that someone is being abusive.

(*) Well, this "cost" is based on the idea that you'll gain roughly as much treasure by adventuring as you would by creating a character with wealth according to DMG p.142. At low levels, this idea is pretty silly. For example, if Quagmire were to retire right now and rebuild himself at level 2, he'd gain 2 magic items and a few hundred gold. :glares at Phoenix8008: So that's an objection. But I don't actually hear anybody making that objection.

renau1g · Jun 16, 2009

I know I plan to switch Murphy/Siblyx over to an Assassin in Jan. 2010 when it becomes available (at least right now that's my thoughts) as that class seems to be a much better fit for him than warlock.

JoeNotCharles · Jun 16, 2009

If we're ok with using "retirement" for this purpose, maybe we should change the wording and/or name of the "retirement" option in the charter then.

EDIT: BTW, the magic item math really doesn't work out. Even if all DM's are careful to give out items exactly on schedule with encounters according to the DMG tables, characters here level "faster" (compared to number of encounters, not time) because of the time XP.

Atanatotatos · Jun 16, 2009

That table shouldn't be followed as-is. You need to give that amount over the course of a level, doesn't matter if you give it in 10 parcels or 3, the amount should be the same.

JoeNotCharles · Jun 16, 2009

Don't mean to derail this thread, but I guess it's relevant to retirement:

The problem is that a single DM probably isn't following a character over the course of an entire level, so it's harder to keep track of how much they should be giving out, especially if you count up the XP in an encounter and then find people levelling before you expect due to time XP.

Atanatotatos · Jun 16, 2009

Well, that's why adventures need to be approved. A DM shoulg be aware of the amount of XP and treasure the adventure is going to grant. You won't know how long it will last, of course, but surely you can have an idea if you have your encouters fleshed out.