Experiences with Weapons of Legacy

Remathilis · Dec 27, 2009

So one of my PCs in my Pathfinder game is going to discover his +1 bastard sword isn't just a beat-up old magic-item; its a near-divine relic which needs to be restored. I want him to keep the weapon and slowly work on releasing its powers, till its restored (at high level) to the kickass weapon it is. (In reality, its based on Ravenloft's Sunsword, see below).

I'm not yet sure how to do it.

I'm considering Weapons of Legacy; it fits the model I'm aiming for and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft did a lot of heavy-lifting for me when they wrote up the Sunsword like that (which I will modify and use for my own purposes), but I've heard all manner of negative things about it (to be honest, the rules could be a LOT clearer, especially in relation to lesser/greater aspects).

Specifically, I'm unsure the weapon will be properly balanced against normal magical items found, especially at high-levels. I'm worried the Personal Costs and Ritual Costs will drive the player away from it (currently, a -3 to skills and loss of 16 hp by 20th level). I'm afraid forging a +10 (+5 keen, holy, flaming-burst) weapon might be a whole-lot easier and more beneficial in the long-run.

So I'm interested in hearing personal experiences with WoL OR alternative methods of letting this sword grow with the PC (gaining sunblade-like powers along the way). All suggestions are welcome.

Thanks

Vorput · Dec 28, 2009

I really didn't want to retype up an answer to this, and thanks to Google- I was able to find my response to a similar question from 3 years ago!

From here: Weapons of Legacy (the thread as a whole might help you)

I found the book mostly worthless... It was an idea that I certainly didn't need a book to tell me, and a whole set of complicated needless mechanics to explain the aforementioned idea.

I was at a loss to explain to my character why he needs to spend 5,400 gold to go pray at a location that he was able to get to spending no more than 300 gold.

I was at a loss to explain to my already low hit point monk why he needed to surrender hit points and take attack penalties to use a supposedly 'beneficial' item.

I was at a loss to explain to my characters why they suddenly gain a feat in order to correctly harness a weapon.

The items ultimately ended up being so much of a headache that one was simply sold because the player didn't want the headaches/penalties that went along with it (and yet thse are supposed to be the equivalent of artifacts).

Moreover, while some of the items are good and fun to read about, by and large it seemed like cliche ideas and writing- something they had to get out, even after it became a pain to create a unique history to each item.

Anyway, The changes I eventually made were re-writing the item's histories to fit my campaign, getting rid of the negatives associated with the item (i.e. save penalties, hit point loss), and changing the quests so they weren't simply based around gold pieces. Instead the character actually had to DO something, something significant that often became an adventure or two in itself. When the monk had to go to the negative energy plane and track down and kill a max hit dice xag-yi and xag-ya, with the party only being able to help kill the smaller ones- THAT was cool. The book's idea was that he needed to spend time contemplating balance in the universe, and visit both the positive and negative energy planes... and somehow spend like 28,000 gold doing that.

Just my two cents.

Vorp

Jarrod · Dec 28, 2009

We tried to use it over and over and it... just wasn't worth it. The penalties really kill the idea. Not because they're death on wheels, but they're just really, really annoying.

Dice4Hire · Dec 28, 2009

I read over WoL an was not impressed as it was a lot of give and take, and the take was really annoying

To keep it simpler, I would do something like the Samurai in Oriental adventures, or the Kensai in Complete Warrior who used xp or treasure sacrifices to awaken powers in their weapons. Put a level limit on each power and let the player choose whatthey activate in each order, but give them a list of what it can do.

Or set the order yourself and the player gets what comes.

If you want to tie a location or a specific sacrifice need ,that can be gravy, just do not give penalties. Players hate those. IME

Crothian · Dec 28, 2009

I use the weapons and their abilities but disregarded the silly penalties and needless spending of gold.

Remathilis · Dec 28, 2009

Crothian said:
I use the weapons and their abilities but disregarded the silly penalties and needless spending of gold.

Interesting. Was there any balancing factor (beyond time) you used? They seem potent compared to "normal" items, but not as much as the penalties would have you think.

I'm thinking of chunking the powers into 5 "chunks" and giving the PC specific quests to unlock the powers. Alternately, I could just give him a bonus instead of a "magical item" when assigning treasure.

Alzrius · Dec 28, 2009

Honestly, the best thing to come from Weapons of Legacy was that short-lived meme we had around here based around the "monster of legacy" template in the back of the book.

- Alzrius, the EN World Kitten of Legacy

the Jester · Dec 28, 2009

I'm a whore for gaming material, and when WoL came out I was flush with cash.

I looked it over and thought, "This is such crap, I'm not even gonna bother to get the book." And let me tell you, that was saying something at the time!

If you want artifacts, use artifacts. If you want magic items with abilities that level over time with the wielder, make it so. If you want items that cost the user significant penalties, use cursed items.

Weapons of legacy, imho, were like a stew that tried to mix all three together, and instead of being a delicious goulash turned out as a burnt, nearly-tasteless tub of fat curd that rats got into and pooped in before anyone could take a taste. No point in eating that!

Jeff Wilder · Dec 28, 2009

From what I've been able to tell, the main beef against Weapons of Legacy is that the rules actually expect you to pay meaningful penalties for weapon powers that are far, far beyond what you'd normally get for the same amount of gold.

People would have been fine, for instance, if the penalties for a weapon's combat powers were things like "-2 on Diplomacy checks," because for the vast majority of melee-oriented PCs, "-2 on Diplomacy checks" is meaningless. On the other hand, "-4 HP" or "-1 to all attacks" is a trade-off that isn't a no-brainer.

In other words, weapons of legacy, by the book, were balanced, and that's not what people -- me, included, at first -- expected. As such, using them is mostly a matter of whether the DM and the players want the flavor of a weapon that grows in power with the character.

Can DMs and players work out another way of doing a similar idea, without the inherent balance of meaningful game-mechanical penalties? Of course, and in many games that will be a superior way to do things. But if you want weapons of legacy that are game-mechanically balanced, and already created for you (including rules for making your own), Weapons of Legacy is a fine book.

FWIW, my DM gave a PC a weapon of legacy (a longbow) and vastly nerfed the penalties, and the weapon is far, far more powerful than anything the rest of us have. (Including my cleric's self-crafted hammer, a relic of Moradin.) If the player weren't hopelessly inept at both optimization and tactics, the longbow would be extremely unbalancing. (The player's ineptitude might be why the DM was so lenient, but the DM's another one who doesn't like the legacy penalties, so I dunno.)

Dice4Hire · Dec 28, 2009

Jeff Wilder said:
F
People would have been fine, for instance, if the penalties for a weapon's combat powers were things like "-2 on Diplomacy checks," because for the vast majority of melee-oriented PCs, "-2 on Diplomacy checks" is meaningless. On the other hand, "-4 HP" or "-1 to all attacks" is a trade-off that isn't a no-brainer.

The problem is that all of those are incredibly boring, and very hard to balance. Were the Weapons of Legacy blanced in a party?

I don't know as I found the book not worth the effort to find out.

Experiences with Weapons of Legacy

Remathilis

Legend

Vorput

First Post

Jarrod

First Post

Dice4Hire

First Post

Crothian

First Post

Remathilis

Legend

Alzrius

The EN World kitten

the Jester

Legend

Jeff Wilder

First Post

Dice4Hire

First Post

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