No more WotC Star Wars site

Crothian · Jun 4, 2010

Zaran said:
So now I have all the Saga books. What if I want to start a game with another group besides my normal one? It won't be long before they can't even buy the main rule book.

Then buy spare copies. I did that with Changeling the Dreaming which had a much smaller print run the Star Wars Saga. I'm seeing the main book priced on line as low as $25 which is pretty good for a $40 book. If you are really concerned about this then do something.

I do think they are shooting themselves in the foot though. They should at least keep printing the books they have.

They doubt they can. When the license is done I believe they can't print or sell any more books. There is probably a grace period of some kind but that's why when a license ends the books are no longer around for anyone.

Stormonu · Jun 4, 2010

korjik said:
When WOTC bought the license, it was just after the special edition releases and just before the prequel releases (IIRC).

I think it was after the first prequel, as I have an "Invasion of Theed" boxed set by WEG.

While WotC's put out more for Star Wars than, say Modern d20, when you compare the amount of books to the output of D&D, it's pretty anemic. There was like, one adventure during the d20 version of the game (IIRC

) and the SAGA books seemed to be driving further and further into more niche areas with each release. I'm fairly sure the decision to drop was based on both diminished sales & expense, but I'll bet a good part of the former part was due to the RPG not being promoted/expanded like D&D (imagine, for example if there was something like DDI for the Star Wars game).

Also, don't forget TSR put out Star Frontiers as well as Alternity. I don't see a reason though, why they couldn't strip most of the mechanics out of the Star Wars SAGA game and repackage it for a more generic space opera game.

drothgery · Jun 5, 2010

Stormonu said:
I think it was after the first prequel, as I have an "Invasion of Theed" boxed set by WEG.

While WotC's put out more for Star Wars than, say Modern d20, when you compare the amount of books to the output of D&D, it's pretty anemic.

Well, yes, but compared to any RPG other than D&D, there was a lot of material produced for SAGA over its 3-year run. A hardcover pretty much every other month from Jan 2008 - Apr 2010 is pretty good.

M.L. Martin · Jun 5, 2010

IMO, one of the key reasons for SWSE's ending may be that it's a WotC RPG.

The problem with doing an RPG project at WotC, from what I've gathered, is that you've got to have a very good reason to devote RPG development time and resources to a project that's not D&D. D&D is simply so big and so successful that even second-tier material for it is likely to do better for you than first-tier material for any other product line.

Now, Star Wars is probably big enough, and the overlap with D&D probably minimal enough, that you could get the first-tier products out there and do pretty well. This is, of course, a relative term--'pretty well' for WotC would be 'we never dreamed of numbers like this' for any other RPG company, even White Wolf or Paizo. Once you've got the core niches covered and are looking at more 'second-tier' products, though, producing SW material is no longer an efficient use of resources. The products would probably still sell well, but not as well as they'd need to in order to justify taking resources that could be used on D&D.

Between that and the license costs, I can see why WotC elected not to continue. I'm somewhat disappointed, but it doesn't appear that we left any major niches uncovered or lost out on promised products like we did the first time around, or like Marvel SAGA fans did when WotC killed that line on short notice.

wingsandsword · Jun 5, 2010

Markn said:
Star Wars, like other RPGs based on movies or TV series, requires new material to continually drive interest in RPG sales. Without that it becomes a niche market and the further its been since a movie/TV series release the less and less interest it draws until it reaches a point where the license costs more than the profit that can be generated. This is my humble opinion at least.

Not really. Not Star Wars.

Back in the 1990's, before there were prequels, the D6 Star Wars game was pretty dang big and successful just off comics and novels. The original Star Wars RPG itself was first released in 1989, when the last Star Wars project was the Ewok movies, and there were not even any new comic books or novels coming out, and more Star Wars movies was some distant legend that one day Lucas might come back and do more. Much of the modern "expanded universe" of Star Wars is based off what was originally written for the RPG.

Star Wars is a large enough, iconic enough property that it can sell without being tied to a movie that came out within the last year or two, or even a torrent of other licensed properties. It has done that before.

Anyway, don't forget that between the old D6 RPG and the two prior editions of d20 SWRPG, there are dozens and dozens of books that have been made long before SWSE. Adventures, catalogs of star systems, lists and lists of starships, sourcebooks detailing myriad worlds and companions to lots of novels. Yeah, it might require some conversion, but that's not too hard, and are you really playing Star Wars for new crunch, or to run around in the Galaxy Far, Far Away. Star Wars to me was always a "fluff" first game. Heck, the non-RPG sourcebooks like the New Essential Chronology or the Essential Atlas are very valuable references for the SW GM, and they are still in print.

scourger · Jun 5, 2010

Zaran said:
Does anyone else think it was a big mistake for WotC to lose the Star Wars license?

Nope. They lost me with Saga Edition, although I do think it was an ingenious strategy to print a new edition to coincide with each of the latest 3 movies. I had what I wanted with the Revised Core Rulebook. I also quit the minis after getting a complete set of Rebel Storm.

What could be cool is if they re-launched it the same way they're doing to do Gamma World, but that is an unknown model. I would just prefer it if it was something ready to go out of the box with optional expansions.

Perhaps they will get back in the business. But I suspect they got as much out of it as they could. It was fun while it lasted.

M.L. Martin · Jun 5, 2010

wingsandsword said:
The original Star Wars RPG itself was first released in 1989

I think it was 1987, actually; I know my copy of DRAGON #126 (October 1987) has a four-page ad announcing it.

Heck, the non-RPG sourcebooks like the New Essential Chronology or the Essential Atlas are very valuable references for the SW GM, and they are still in print.

I think these books are part of the reason the RPG may not be as big as it was back in WEG's heyday--back then, the kind of stuff you find in those books was found in the RPG stuff, so you had fans buying the RPG as source material. Nowadays, between the Essential Guides, the SW Encyclopedia, and Wookieepedia, most of that crossover appeal's been lost or diluted.

Markn · Jun 6, 2010

wingsandsword said:
Not really. Not Star Wars.

Back in the 1990's, before there were prequels, the D6 Star Wars game was pretty dang big and successful just off comics and novels. The original Star Wars RPG itself was first released in 1989, when the last Star Wars project was the Ewok movies, and there were not even any new comic books or novels coming out, and more Star Wars movies was some distant legend that one day Lucas might come back and do more. Much of the modern "expanded universe" of Star Wars is based off what was originally written for the RPG.

Star Wars is a large enough, iconic enough property that it can sell without being tied to a movie that came out within the last year or two, or even a torrent of other licensed properties. It has done that before.

Anyway, don't forget that between the old D6 RPG and the two prior editions of d20 SWRPG, there are dozens and dozens of books that have been made long before SWSE. Adventures, catalogs of star systems, lists and lists of starships, sourcebooks detailing myriad worlds and companions to lots of novels. Yeah, it might require some conversion, but that's not too hard, and are you really playing Star Wars for new crunch, or to run around in the Galaxy Far, Far Away. Star Wars to me was always a "fluff" first game. Heck, the non-RPG sourcebooks like the New Essential Chronology or the Essential Atlas are very valuable references for the SW GM, and they are still in print.

I agree with you on all of this except when you factor in that the license is currently owned by WotC. As Mathew L. Martin points out, Star Wars has diminished returns after the first few main books are put out and the numbers likely aren't big enough for corporate shareholders to be invested in retaining the license.

In my own experience, I have played Star Wars since the d6 days when it was owned by WEG and I am aware that a lot of the original EU stuff was based on the WEG Star Wars RPG material - whcih I think speaks to the strength of WEG back in the day. I am a hard core Star Wars fan and don't require anything beyond the original 3 movies to keep me interested in playing (Star Wars IV is easily my most watched movie - I am certain I have seen it over 100 times and can recite it word for word). However, the interest in playing a Star Wars RPG by players joining my RPG group over the years has waxed and waned in time with major releases by George Lucas - with the movies having the largest effect. I've spoken to local stores and they echo the same thing - with the release of the prequals they saw a big boost in sales. The further removed from the date of the last movie the sharper the decrease in sales - both in core Star Wars producs as well as recently released supplements.

I'm not claiming this is the only reason for WotC dropping the license but I believe it is one of the largest contributing factors.

Holy Bovine · Jun 6, 2010

korjik said:
I disagree that SAGA is at the point of diminishing returns tho. The overinflated prices for out of print books clearly shows a demand exists. Add in Clone wars, the upcoming new cartoon show, and the still mythological live action show, plus the video games, plus all the books and comic books, and you have alot of ways to increase demand.

Heck, I think one commercial during Clone Wars would prolly do more to get more players into gaming that all of the Essentials line will.

So, I think it was only the business side that killed the game, not anything to do with the game ageing. RPGs are low margin, Licensed RPGs are pretty much no margin. Expensive License RPGS are money losers except in perfect conditions.

Do you really think the Star Wars license was in 'perfect conditions'? If there is no money to made with expensive licenses they why would WotC keep Star Wars? Why would any company?

MadLordOfMilk · Jun 6, 2010

I played my first Star Wars: Saga Edition game today. Now I'm hooked, and they don't even have the website up anymore. D'oh!

Even then, though, I'd only buy probably the Core Rulebook... splatbooks don't really interest me.

No more WotC Star Wars site

Crothian

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M.L. Martin

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wingsandsword

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