No more WotC Star Wars site

[Markn]

Star Wars, like other RPGs based on movies or TV series, requires new material to continually drive interest in RPG sales. Without that it becomes a niche market and the further its been since a movie/TV series release the less and less interest it draws until it reaches a point where the license costs more than the profit that can be generated. This is my humble opinion at least.

 

[Obryn]

I think the fact that ebay prices are so high means that there is demand for the current line.

Yeah, it's making me strongly consider selling my Starships of the Galaxy.

I don't agree that they ran out of products to do for Star Wars. They can never have too many ships. A book on Stock Light Freighters would have been awesome. A book of planets. West End had a box set that was devoted to a rebel corvette that was just awesome for adventure hooks and ideas. Plus they could have made adventures. Sourcebooks made for each series would be have grand as well. Pretty much anything that can help GMs add their adventures into the universe without having to make up just about every thing.

Honestly, they were already well into the point of diminishing returns. Once you get the basics out of the way, everything else gets increasingly optional. I'd say the must-haves (apart from the core book) are taken care of by the Starships and Threats books - and the former moreso than the latter. Important ones from there might be the Scoundrel guide, the Droid book, and maybe Force Unleashed for the extra force stuff. And then you have some awesome stuff left - like the KotOR sourcebook - but you're still looking at niche books.

At some point, I'm sure they did the math. "Well, this license is expensive, and we're reaching the long tail of supplement ideas... I doubt we can sell enough copies of Han Solo's Guide to Light Freighters to recoup the costs..."

-O

 

[korjik]

Yeah, it's making me strongly consider selling my Starships of the Galaxy.


Honestly, they were already well into the point of diminishing returns. Once you get the basics out of the way, everything else gets increasingly optional. I'd say the must-haves (apart from the core book) are taken care of by the Starships and Threats books - and the former moreso than the latter. Important ones from there might be the Scoundrel guide, the Droid book, and maybe Force Unleashed for the extra force stuff. And then you have some awesome stuff left - like the KotOR sourcebook - but you're still looking at niche books.

At some point, I'm sure they did the math. "Well, this license is expensive, and we're reaching the long tail of supplement ideas... I doubt we can sell enough copies of Han Solo's Guide to Light Freighters to recoup the costs..."

-O

Your very first comment tends to refute the rest of your post.

well, partly refute anyway

You have sort of hit upon what I think WOTCs problem with the SW license is: Expense.

I figure that the license has to be very expensive, relatively speaking. When WOTC bought the license, it was just after the special edition releases and just before the prequel releases (IIRC). That was the high point of the license seller's market. WOTC prolly figured that after the preqels came out, everyone would be SW mad and buy the game. The abominations that were released, plus the increases in costs to produce the books has pushed the costs so that I would bet they dont make much off any book, including the core.

Heck just compare the SAGA book to the 1e revised book. The old one is like 3 times the mass...

I disagree that SAGA is at the point of diminishing returns tho. The overinflated prices for out of print books clearly shows a demand exists. Add in Clone wars, the upcoming new cartoon show, and the still mythological live action show, plus the video games, plus all the books and comic books, and you have alot of ways to increase demand.

Heck, I think one commercial during Clone Wars would prolly do more to get more players into gaming that all of the Essentials line will.

So, I think it was only the business side that killed the game, not anything to do with the game ageing. RPGs are low margin, Licensed RPGs are pretty much no margin. Expensive License RPGS are money losers except in perfect conditions.

 

[korjik]

Star Wars, like other RPGs based on movies or TV series, requires new material to continually drive interest in RPG sales. Without that it becomes a niche market and the further its been since a movie/TV series release the less and less interest it draws until it reaches a point where the license costs more than the profit that can be generated. This is my humble opinion at least.

Clone Wars is currently showing, the new cartoon is next fall(?), and the live action show is supposedly in development.

There are comic book lines and Novels being published.

This is better support that any other game there is.

 

[Obryn]

Your very first comment tends to refute the rest of your post.

well, partly refute anyway

It's two different things: Prices of existing books, and hypothetical need/desire of future books.

I disagree that SAGA is at the point of diminishing returns tho. The overinflated prices for out of print books clearly shows a demand exists. Add in Clone wars, the upcoming new cartoon show, and the still mythological live action show, plus the video games, plus all the books and comic books, and you have alot of ways to increase demand.

There's a difference between an actual, essentially core, book and a hypothetical future release where all the big ones have been done already. They already had the Clone Wars Campaign guide, for instance, and every RPG book peaks its sales right around its release date.

Being able to sell a single book for $75 or so doesn't imply that the line could have continued to sell new books at a brisk rate. Only that the core books were still in demand from people who wanted to give the game a try.

So, I think it was only the business side that killed the game, not anything to do with the game ageing. RPGs are low margin, Licensed RPGs are pretty much no margin. Expensive License RPGS are money losers except in perfect conditions.

That's exactly correct, which is why it's puzzling that you're disagreeing with me.

For an expensive licensed property, you can't just have existing books sell at a fairly slow rate. You need new books to sell at a good rate, too.

-O

 

[Lord Xtheth]

There are a few things I would have liked to see with SWSE.
A consolidated feat book
A consolidated talent book
A consolidated force power book
A consolidated Race book
A Dark side source book (Force unleashed doesn't count)
A second book full of more star ships
A second book full of threats

That's just off the top of my head for projects. That could span a year of releases, given time, I could probably come up with 5 more years of stuff...

I blame Lucas for the sadness that is the end of SWSE. I bet he wanted too much money to continue the Star Wars license. He saw the figures being projected by the MMO coming out, the new series, the live action, all the TOYS that are obviously coming out, and thought he could weasel every dime out of us so raised his prices while saying something like "I haven't noticed a Recession?"

 

[Markn]

Clone Wars is currently showing, the new cartoon is next fall(?), and the live action show is supposedly in development.

There are comic book lines and Novels being published.

This is better support that any other game there is.

I'll give you these points, however, the live action series has been in planning for a long time, more than 5 years in fact. People can only be excited for so long. Cartoons only appeal to a small segment. My main point is this - the movies are what generate the interest in Star Wars - for most, the genre starts and ends there. For the die hards, like me (and it sounds like you) the EU keeps the fire burning but it simply isn't a factor to the population at large. As an example, if you mention the word Yuuzhan Vong to 10 star wars fans, I would be less than 5 have heard the word.

 

[Zaran]

I honestly think that the diminishing returns will happen with 4e as well. This essentials line is really just a scheme to sell the same stuff printed in a different way to new players or people who just have too much money. Their focus seems to be almost totally towards players and not GMs so we will see little in the way of GM aids unless they can also put stuff for players in the same book.

I wonder if they would have made more money if they had just stuck with a standard sized book for Saga. That silly square shaped book annoyed me to no end. I think half the reason why they did it was so they had less space per page and thus sold something for more money with less content.

Even still I really liked their Talent tree concept. I think DnD would have been better if they had gone that way instead of the more cinematic Vancian powers that is 4e.

So now I have all the Saga books. What if I want to start a game with another group besides my normal one? It won't be long before they can't even buy the main rule book. I'll have to share my books and that makes for a slow game and ignorant players. So after a year or two I bet the people playing the game will be a fraction of what it was just because people can't get the rules. I know WotC doesn't really care about that. They got my money. That's all that really counts to them.

I do think they are shooting themselves in the foot though. They should at least keep printing the books they have.

 

[wedgeski]

I blame Lucas for the sadness that is the end of SWSE. I bet he wanted too much money to continue the Star Wars license. He saw the figures being projected by the MMO coming out, the new series, the live action, all the TOYS that are obviously coming out, and thought he could weasel every dime out of us so raised his prices while saying something like "I haven't noticed a Recession?"

Look, I know it's fashionable to despise George Lucas but projecting this onto him borders on lunacy.

 

[Obryn]

...snip irrelevant 4e/WotC bashing...

So now I have all the Saga books. What if I want to start a game with another group besides my normal one? It won't be long before they can't even buy the main rule book. I'll have to share my books and that makes for a slow game and ignorant players. So after a year or two I bet the people playing the game will be a fraction of what it was just because people can't get the rules. I know WotC doesn't really care about that. They got my money. That's all that really counts to them.

This is the same situation every player of every out-of-print game has ever faced. You'd be facing the same situation now if you wanted to run a WEG d6 Star Wars game, or a WotC RCR Star Wars game. (Or for that matter WFRP2, AD&D 2e, etc.)

Except for Palladium and Call of Cthulhu, game lines end. Book-sharing is always a pretty good solution. Secondary markets are out there, too. And there are other ways of getting out-of-print games in pdf, the ethics of which you and your group can decide on your own terms.

I do think they are shooting themselves in the foot though. They should at least keep printing the books they have.

If the license were free, or a lot cheaper, they very well might have. I think SWSE was great, but it could have seriously used a new edition or at least half-edition to clean up some of the wackiness in the rules (especially re: Force use).

I am pretty sure WotC would have continued selling the books indefinitely if there were a way to make money off it. They're not a charity. And they don't even have the legal ability to make the game public domain - licensed properties don't work that way. The only way to continue selling the books they had was to continue with the license - and I find it hard to imagine that they could stay in the black without ever producing another new sourcebook.

-O