No more WotC Star Wars site

Steel_Wind · Jun 7, 2010

Holy Bovine said:
Do you really think the Star Wars license was in 'perfect conditions'? If there is no money to made with expensive licenses they why would WotC keep Star Wars? Why would any company?

WotC made money off of Star Wars, don't you think they didn't.

However, one of the aspects of the game line that made them money was one that WotC had already sold to death: Star Wars Miniatures.

Star Wars minis always made money and, unlike the D&D minis, there was a significant group of people who bought Star Wars minis just to PLAY Star Wars minis. But after all the sets they did sell, the market had been flooded.

Take away the demand for more minis in a saturated marketplace, add the fact that the main Saga Edition game was essentially complete = and balance that on the other side of the equation with the cost of a new up front licensing fee.

From Lucas' perspective, Star Wars is a valuable commodity and there are two things coming up in the future which would appear to greatly enhance the value of the license, namely:

Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO game, to be released in May 2011; and,
The Star Wars Dark Times live action TV series - release date unknown but expected 2011-2012.

Any licensee is going to pay $$$ to reap the benefit of those expected additions to the Star Wars milieu, whereas, the profits to be realized from them would happen 2-3 years from now. Win or lose, the license fee would have to paid for NOW.

In the meanwhile, the Saga Edition game had pretty much gone as far as it reasonably could have and Star Wars minis were a product which had been bilked of most of its worth. Given the upfront cost and the deferred expectations of profit -- all without the same Star Wars minis revenue for at least the next 18 months until the TOR MMO was released to provide a variety of new mini material to sell - WotC said NOPE.

How often can you revise, reset and resell a RPG? Saga Edition is an excellent game - and frankly - it didn't need a new rules set revision right now. WotC saw the numbers and the price asked for and said no. They were probably right to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Saga Edition. But perversely, that's one of the best things about the end of the license. Saga Edition is a complete game. It didn't need and was not going to benefit from a cynical and FOURTH "revise/reset/resell" of the game, and it didn't need more books at this juncture, either. It needed WotC to leave it the hell alone and go to a maintenance release schedule for the game until The Old Republic was released. One, perhaps at most TWO books to be released in the next 18 months. And that sort of slow publishing process is not something WotC does very well. They operate with different expectations of profit and revenue than this game needed right now.

HeavensThunderHammer · Jun 7, 2010

Yeah I'm sad to the see the game go, and even more sad I didn't buy Starships of the Galaxy and Knights of the Old Republic a year or two ago when they were reasonably priced!!

Seeing the website go down... Man oh man. So sad. At the same time, I agree that the game line feels complete. It could have been a little more tightly made mechanically, but all in all I feel it's a nice elegant middle of the road system.

korjik · Jun 7, 2010

Obryn said:
It's two different things: Prices of existing books, and hypothetical need/desire of future books.

There's a difference between an actual, essentially core, book and a hypothetical future release where all the big ones have been done already. They already had the Clone Wars Campaign guide, for instance, and every RPG book peaks its sales right around its release date.

Being able to sell a single book for $75 or so doesn't imply that the line could have continued to sell new books at a brisk rate. Only that the core books were still in demand from people who wanted to give the game a try.

That's exactly correct, which is why it's puzzling that you're disagreeing with me.

For an expensive licensed property, you can't just have existing books sell at a fairly slow rate. You need new books to sell at a good rate, too.

-O

You seem to be saying that there is no demand, so the books wouldnt sell. I am saying that without the license cost, the line would be profitable because there is good demand.

korjik · Jun 7, 2010

Holy Bovine said:
Do you really think the Star Wars license was in 'perfect conditions'? If there is no money to made with expensive licenses they why would WotC keep Star Wars? Why would any company?

Odd that you quote two words that I never used.

odd that you are making the exact same point that I did.

Did you actually read my post?

korjik · Jun 7, 2010

Steel_Wind said:
WotC made money off of Star Wars, don't you think they didn't.

However, one of the aspects of the game line that made them money was one that WotC had already sold to death: Star Wars Miniatures.

Star Wars minis always made money and, unlike the D&D minis, there was a significant group of people who bought Star Wars minis just to PLAY Star Wars minis. But after all the sets they did sell, the market had been flooded.

Take away the demand for more minis in a saturated marketplace, add the fact that the main Saga Edition game was essentially complete = and balance that on the other side of the equation with the cost of a new up front licensing fee.

From Lucas' perspective, Star Wars is a valuable commodity and there are two things coming up in the future which would appear to greatly enhance the value of the license, namely:

Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO game, to be released in May 2011; and,

The Star Wars Dark Times live action TV series - release date unknown but expected 2011-2012.

Any licensee is going to pay $$$ to reap the benefit of those expected additions to the Star Wars milieu, whereas, the profits to be realized from them would happen 2-3 years from now. Win or lose, the license fee would have to paid for NOW.

In the meanwhile, the Saga Edition game had pretty much gone as far as it reasonably could have and Star Wars minis were a product which had been bilked of most of its worth. Given the upfront cost and the deferred expectations of profit -- all without the same Star Wars minis revenue for at least the next 18 months until the TOR MMO was released to provide a variety of new mini material to sell - WotC said NOPE.

How often can you revise, reset and resell a RPG? Saga Edition is an excellent game - and frankly - it didn't need a new rules set revision right now. WotC saw the numbers and the price asked for and said no. They were probably right to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Saga Edition. But perversely, that's one of the best things about the end of the license. Saga Edition is a complete game. It didn't need and was not going to benefit from a cynical and FOURTH "revise/reset/resell" of the game, and it didn't need more books at this juncture, either. It needed WotC to leave it the hell alone and go to a maintenance release schedule for the game until The Old Republic was released. One, perhaps at most TWO books to be released in the next 18 months. And that sort of slow publishing process is not something WotC does very well. They operate with different expectations of profit and revenue than this game needed right now.

Games Workshop shows that the lifetime of a miniatures game is significantly longer than 5-10 years.

SoldierBlue · Jun 7, 2010

I have Star Wars SAGA, and we'll be giving it a try for the first time here in a few weeks.

I see all the sourcebooks, and the game itself looks tight, but why weren't modules made for it? I can only see sourcebooks as far as the eye can see...

Lazy GMs like me would have paid for modules...

Zaran · Jun 7, 2010

SoldierBlue said:
I have Star Wars SAGA, and we'll be giving it a try for the first time here in a few weeks.

I see all the sourcebooks, and the game itself looks tight, but why weren't modules made for it? I can only see sourcebooks as far as the eye can see...

Lazy GMs like me would have paid for modules...

The reason I believe they didn't do modules is someone in WotC thinks that because modules are only sold to 1/6th of each group that they wouldn't make enough money to merit producing them. Each Star Wars book was made both for players and GMs combined.

The only reason why we get modules in DnD is the player base is so large they can justify it with larger profits. Even still, I think DnD suffers from the "Not just the GM" programming. They have given us minimal GM aids for each campaign world and have mainly focused on giving the players lots of classes and feats.

Obryn · Jun 7, 2010

korjik said:
You seem to be saying that there is no demand, so the books wouldnt sell. I am saying that without the license cost, the line would be profitable because there is good demand.

Yes, and without the magical unicorns running through my backyard, I woudn't have to pick up rainbow-colored droppings every weekend.

Anyway, you're misreading my posts. As I've said a few times now, I think SWSE was already well into the long tail of its lifespan. It's essentially a completed product line - especially after the last sourcebook about the Unknown Regions... but I don't think WotC would have pulled the plug entirely if it weren't for the licensing costs. In fact, I think it's reasonable that we might have seen a revised rule-set in the next few years had the licensing costs not been huge. I would have welcomed that, honestly.

-O

TheYeti1775 · Jun 7, 2010

The question is though will someone else pick up the license or will it flounder out there till someone takes a plunge on it.

I actually would side with WotC on this one though.
I'm quite sure the Star Wars Lic is expensive as safe passage for a Paladin through the Nine Hells.

Would any of us truly be upset if at GenCon they announced their own Space Opera game release?
Using the same rulesets as Saga or along the same line of 4E? (I haven't played Saga yet, I will in a few weeks after my first 4E game.)
As we all have argued in the past, game rules aren't copyrightable only the fluff is.
If the release contains ship stats, player generation and rule options to allow you to create Jedi/Sith on your own fluff not a single one of us would begrudge them.
By keeping it generic, it allows folks to plug it in their own Star Wars/Trek worlds all they want. Heck throw Starship Troopers into the mix as well.
Player creation, ship stats, planet stats, etc are all we really need.
The minis could easily be continued as well for this, your just rebadging them from Star Wars to 'Star Wizards'

. Sure you lose a few iconics, but it can be easily continued if they wished.

Zaran · Jun 7, 2010

I don't know. I'm betting they would have to change it up drastically so they wouldn't get sued by Lucas and Star Wars fans would want to play Star Wars.

No more WotC Star Wars site

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