No more WotC Star Wars site

[pukunui]

But to those who actually played SAGA, how was it?

I've heard that it was incapable of properly emulating cinematic space opera, and I've also heard that it was a solid system that rewarded smart play?

What's the word from the experienced players/GMs of SAGA?

I really like SWSE. I like it a lot better than any version of D&D (and I've played 2e, 3e and 4e). I haven't played any other version of the Star Wars RPG, though. I would've been much happier with 4e if it had stayed closer to SWSE in mechanics.

SWSE isn't perfect, no, but it's still a good system. It may not emulate some things you see in the movies very well, but that's OK. It still works as a system.

If you have a chance to play it, I say go for it!

 

[SoldierBlue]

I really like SWSE. I like it a lot better than any version of D&D (and I've played 2e, 3e and 4e). I haven't played any other version of the Star Wars RPG, though. I would've been much happier with 4e if it had stayed closer to SWSE in mechanics.

SWSE isn't perfect, no, but it's still a good system. It may not emulate some things you see in the movies very well, but that's OK. It still works as a system.

If you have a chance to play it, I say go for it!

Thanks for this. Did you write your own modules, dig up old West End game modules, or what?

I made a poor attempt to use the Traveller rules for a an Alien Legion (an old Marvel comic book from the 80s...), and it was a lot of work to make a modules. The possibilities for adventure are not so....obvious? And those that are seem to require a lot of work.

But comments from people get me pumped up for the SAGA 1-shot I want to attempt next month.

Any more info you can push me, great - I must appreciate it.

 

[SoldierBlue]

Plus I'm looking at picking up the Military Campaigns hardcover for Star Wars Saga; is it any good?

Thanks

 

[pukunui]

Thanks for this. Did you write your own modules, dig up old West End game modules, or what?

I am currently running a game using the free Dawn of Defiance adventure path that WotC put out. Since the main website is down, it's no longer accessible there, but other people over on the WotC forums have put up the pdfs on mediafire.

Before that, another guy in my group was GMing SWSE. He used a combination of stuff he'd made up himself, stuff he'd converted from RCR, and stuff from the books (a number of the SWSE supplements have mini-adventures and such in the backs; like Scum & Villainy, Galaxy at War, Galaxy of Intrigue, and The Unknown Regions).

Any more info you can push me, great - I must appreciate it.

You should check out the Praxeum over on the WotC site. Lots of fanmade stuff there. My friend, who goes by "Prom" on the WotC site, has compiled all of the fanmade and fan-converted modules on his mediafire site.

You should also check out the d20 radio forums. Plenty of good stuff over there too.


Truth be told, though: while SWSE could have used a few more modules, it seems to have been primarily designed with sandbox-style campaigns in mind (where the GM just kind of makes it up as he goes along).


When you say "the Military Campaigns hardcover for Star Wars Saga", do you mean Galaxy at War? If so, yes, it's worth getting. It's got some pretty decent stuff in it, particularly if you want to run a military style campaign. It is also the unofficial "soldier class" book (with Scum & Villainy being the "scoundrel book", Galaxy of Intrigue being the "noble book", The Unknown Regions being the "scout book", and the Jedi Academy Training Manual being the "Jedi book").

If you want to buy the books, you'd better get in quick: they're selling out fast! Keep an eye on the miniature market website. They're selling all the SWSE books at clearance prices. They're probably sold out now but they'll also probably get more stock in soon (they've sold out and restocked twice already).

 

[dm4hire]

Anyone else sign up for the e20 patronage, since it is based off of SAGA?

 

[amethal]

Anyone else sign up for the e20 patronage, since it is based off of SAGA?

I did, but it seems to be taking too much from D&D 4th edition for my taste.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think that number of people interested in a space opera rpg that are not interested in a Star Wars rpg is much larger than you think. Although Star Wars is a very popular universe, there are a LOT of space opera universes out there in novels, and a lot of stories that can be told that do not involve the conceits of the Star Wars universe.

Alternity
Babylon 5
Blue Planet (may be closer to Hard Sci Fi)
Fading Suns (my personal favorite)
Farscape
Jovian Chronicles
Prime Directive/Star Trek
Robotech
Serenity
Space 1889
Star Frontiers (admittedly very old)
Trinity

Now if you were to count the number of currently active players of those 12 game systems you just mentioned, do you think you'd come close to reaching a number that would inspire WotC to spend money, staff and development time to actually produce a game like that as well?

It's all well and good to throw out various names of properties that are space-operaish and say that some people like them... but you have to ask yourself if the number of people who like them is high enough to actually continually spend their money buying several hardcover RPG books on them. If the answer is 'no', or 'I don't know', or 'I'm not sure'... then that pretty much tells us all we need to know why WotC will probably not bother rewriting and releasing the SAGA rules without the attached Star Wars mythos.

This is WotC we're talking about... the large roleplaying game company in the world, based on both size and money. It's not a group of five people operating out of an apartment writing a space-opera game that might sell at most 1,000 copies. WotC has differing financial needs that have a much greater impact on the decisions they make on what they spend their development time on.

 

[karlindel]

Originally posted by DEFCON1
I don't think anyone would be upset... but I also think everyone would raise an eyebrow and say 'Why bother'? If you can't/won't produce Star Wars... why would you bother to produce a game like Star Wars? How many people out there want to buy and play a 'space opera' RPG but "Oh jeez, if only it wasn't in the Star Wars Universe!"? I think we can safely say that the numbers for that are infinitesimally small. Nowhere near enough to justify forsaking other genres in an attempt to re-catch the Star Wars lightning in a bottle.

It is possible that we are talking past each other. This first post appears to indicate that you are discussing the demand for space opera RPGs that are not Star Wars. I do not believe that we can safely say that the number of players interested in space opera that do not want to play Star Wars is infinitesimally small. The fact that there have been numerous rpgs produced specifically for space operas indicates this. The fact that numerous generic systems address space opera is further evidence of this. The fact that many of these systems were produced for several years and had numerous supplements also indicates that they were not failed products that did not have sufficient demand.

There are a number of reasons for a space opera RPG that is not Star Wars, such as:
Players may prefer a universe which has less canon to get in the way of their adventuring.
Players may prefer to play a space opera game which does not include powerful psionics/magic (or perhaps no psionics/magic at all).
Players may prefer to play a space opera game involving very few or no alien races.
Players may prefer different technologies to be used, such as jump gates or teleportation rather than hyperspace.

Anecdotally, I was once starting a new campaign, and asked the players what genre, system, and setting they would like. Of the five players, one wanted to play Star Wars, while the other four wanted to play a Space Opera game, but specifically did not want to play Star Wars.

Originally Posted by DEFCON1
Now if you were to count the number of currently active players of those 12 game systems you just mentioned, do you think you'd come close to reaching a number that would inspire WotC to spend money, staff and development time to actually produce a game like that as well?

It's all well and good to throw out various names of properties that are space-operaish and say that some people like them... but you have to ask yourself if the number of people who like them is high enough to actually continually spend their money buying several hardcover RPG books on them. If the answer is 'no', or 'I don't know', or 'I'm not sure'... then that pretty much tells us all we need to know why WotC will probably not bother rewriting and releasing the SAGA rules without the attached Star Wars mythos.

This is WotC we're talking about... the large roleplaying game company in the world, based on both size and money. It's not a group of five people operating out of an apartment writing a space-opera game that might sell at most 1,000 copies. WotC has differing financial needs that have a much greater impact on the decisions they make on what they spend their development time on.

You appear to be changing the focus of the discussion, going to the specific case of WOTC producing a SAGA system RPG that is not Star Wars. There are several different questions to address in this specific case:

Is there sufficient demand for a space opera RPG that uses the SAGA system but is not Star Wars? I am willing to agree that the demand for a SAGA system RPG that is not Star Wars is likely infinitesimally small, particularly given that most people interested in SAGA system but not in Star Wars probably picked up the SAGA system books and have already repurposed them as they desire.

Is there sufficient demand for a space opera RPG that is not Star Wars to produce such an RPG? The answer is clearly yes for many companies, as there have been many produced, as well as generic systems that have supplements for space opera style games. Some of the systems I mentioned have a large number of supplements that came out over several years, so they are not games that came out and flopped.

Is there sufficient demand for a space opera RPG that is not Star Wars for WOTC to produce such an RPG? The answer is maybe. As we do not have sufficient market information, the best indicator will be whether or not WOTC decides to produce such an RPG (inasmuch as WOTC likely has the best data). I think the answer is most likely yes.

 

[Steel_Wind]

But to those who actually played SAGA, how was it?

I've heard that it was incapable of properly emulating cinematic space opera, and I've also heard that it was a solid system that rewarded smart play?

What's the word from the experienced players/GMs of SAGA?

SAGA is, in my opinion, easily the best version of a Star Wars RPG out there. It is EASILY capable of simulating cinematic sequences, again, better than any other version of Star Wars to date. I've read pawsplay's comments before on SW:SE and we PROFOUNDLY disagree on Star Wars: SE.

There isn't much a of a community still playing The OCR or the RCR version of Star Wars. There was -- and is -- a significant Star Wars: SE community. It is the first version of ANY Star Wars game I ever played where playing a Jedi FELT like I was PLAYING A JEDI. The Star Warsy feel is there even at low levels.

In terms of the overall system, SW:SE is a gem. We're going to be playing this one for a long time to come.

By the way -- as far as "no modules" for Star Wars:SE? There was a full adventure path 1st to 20th level released on the website (and still available if you read through my posts for the download link). There were also many adventures within the hardcover books. Not perhaps as many as we all might prefer - but it's not a case of "no material for the game". Over the course of the books and with the Dawn of Defiance and a few other scenarion/modules on the Website over the course of time, there is easily more than 30 Saga adventures.

More than enough to get anybody going. There are a number of community modules as well.

In terms of design, the game is relatively easy to design your own advntures for once you get in the groove. A LOT of the material in the expansion books helps with this as well. Such as vreating plug n play base sections in Galaxy at War, unit designs in Clone Wars, etc.. Unknown Regions has awesome charts for planetary generation and even plug 'n play alien beast creation and "near Human" species creation.

I really can't say enough that is complimentary about SW: SE. The community, especially those centred around the Ennie Award winning Order 66 Podcast is hellafun and quite helpful too.

Take the 14 hardcovers for SW:SE and all the miniatures released for the game -- a large number of which are common and uncommons and are still available from third parties for pretty damn cheap, and you have a VAST amount of material to create your own Star Wars campaign for years and years to come.

I went a little overboard on my minis purchasing. I dropped probably about....$350? Might be $400. For that, I got ARMIES AND ARMIES of clones and droids and ship. I've got about 1200 Star Wars minis, the overwhelming majority of which are in groups of 6, 12 or 20. Highly usable for use in a whole swath of encounters on the ground and in space. Really - I'm TOTALLY set.

I love the game but, truly, I'm not disappointed that the license ended. Frankly, we were >>just<< getting to the point where the bloat was becoming unmanageable and WotC would have started to do things that would have wrecked the game with inevitable power creep.

If you ever get an opportunity to play in a Star Wars: SE campaign with a GM who is really into it? Say YES to playing in that campaign in a heartbeat -- before the GM changes his/her mind.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It is possible that we are talking past each other.

I'm pretty sure this is the case.

I was replying to the comment that WotC should use their SAGA rules to produce a space-opera RPG that isn't Star Wars, so they don't have to pay a licensing fee. And my reply was from WotC's perspective... that the number of people who would play or be interested in a non-Star Wars space-opera game would not be nearly enough for them to justify spending their money, staff, and and years of development time to produce it. You believe it's a 'maybe'... I believe it's a 'no chance'. Simply for the fact that of all the genres they could produce a new game for (either with the SAGA rules or the 4e mechanics), why they would choose the one that they had already spend years producing product for (even if they shaved the Lucaswrited names off everything)? It makes absolutely no financial sense for WotC to do so (considering that if people really wanted to use the SAGA rules for a non-Star Wars space-opera game, they could just use the mechanics as-is and houserule / re-fluff things as needed).

Using SAGA for a hard sci-fi or cyberpunk game makes more sense than reproducing a 'generic space-opera'.