Acrobatics skill questions/critiques

Alright, some clarification would be nice on the little things PF changed when they consolidated Balance, Jump, and Tumble into one skill.

Acrobatics

1. Now you're always flatfooted while balancing, no matter how many ranks you have in Acrobatics?

2. A successful check lets you move across a difficult surface at half speed. Ok. If you beat the DC by ten or whatever, can you move full speed? What happens if you fail? Do you just not move on that move action, or do you fall? Do you need to fail by a certain amount to fall, or by any amount? Latter seems extremely harsh...
EDIT: +5 DC mod to move at full speed, oops.

3. In 3E, tumbling through a threatened square was DC 15 and through an occupied square 25, a difference of 10 points. In PF, it's only a 5 point difference, but the easier task is MUCH harder... In my limited experience, CMD is often pretty high, and with less chances to jack up a skill check in PF (no synergies, for instance)...can someone who maxes Acrobatics at every opportunity even expect to not get hit more than half the time? The level 6 character i'm building right now with max ranks in it has Acrobatics +11 (-1 armor check penalty) and a CMD of 23. He'd fail against himself more than half the time, and that's assuming perfectly flat ground and no other threatening opponents!

4. Do you move at half speed through the squares you're tumbling, or for your entire move action? In 3E it was the former, in PF, the RAW looks like the latter, which is ridiculous if you're only tumbling through a single square. Also, if you fail the check to avoid provoking an AoO, are you still forced to move at half speed, or since an AoO interrupts and comes before the offending action, can you ammend your movement to not get screwed over on distance allowed for no gain? (ie, eat the AoO and then move full speed, like any schmoe without the skill would have done)

5. You now only need a 10 ft running start for jumps, and instead of training being the difference between landing on your feet or prone... the only thing that makes you land prone now is by failing by 5 or more? Is that right? Otherwise, no real issues with jumping, they didn't mess with it much, and it didn't need any real fixing anyway. I like standardizing the bonus/penalty to both be 4 per 10 ft above/below 30, instead of 6 for lower, 4 for higher.

6. Kinda obvious, but in 3E, you could occasionally reduce a fall by 20 ft of damage (more, if using the epic Tumble DC rules) -- 10 ft by jumping down deliberately, and 10 ft by rolling on the landing with tumble. Since in PF, they're both the same skill, that had to go....but why did they take out the roll portion that could apply to any fall, and only give you the skill option for deliberate jumps/falls? Makes no sense to me.

7. Acrobatics DC modifiers. Anyone else think these can get a little...freaking crazy... very fast? Maybe for checks with flat DCs, like balancing or jumping a short distance, it's ok. But...dealing with a foe's CMD AND a bunch of these penalties would make Acrobatics for tumbling quickly become impossible, IMO.

8. For completeness sake...you now need to be level 3 for the higher fighting defensively and total defense AC bonus, instead of level 2. Just noting it.

I think I covered all of the changes, it's a surprisingly large amount for skills that IMO worked pretty well as written.

From what I have seen so far you almost need either boots of elven kind or skill focus acrobatics for tumbling to be useful for avoiding AoO, both if you want to be successful most of the time.

I tried using 10+BAB as the tumble DC in 3.5 once. I gave up on it when an ogre barbarian caught a character tumbling and like to killed him, and I realized I'd instituted a rule that actually discouraged mobility in combat. I might have pulled the trigger too soon since it was a CR 7 and the party was level 3-4, so they weren't supposed to be fighting it.

Noumenon said:

I tried using 10+BAB as the tumble DC in 3.5 once. I gave up on it when an ogre barbarian caught a character tumbling and like to killed him, and I realized I'd instituted a rule that actually discouraged mobility in combat. I might have pulled the trigger too soon since it was a CR 7 and the party was level 3-4, so they weren't supposed to be fighting it.

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Everyone who complained about "easy tumbling" in 3E missed the point that squishy melee specialist classes like rogue and monk relied on that mechanic to mix it up in melee and still get out alive when they realized "oh wait...you mean I can't take hits?"

Tumbling through an enemy's actual square (which was never as easy as teh internets tended to claim anyway)...that might be a legitimate gripe to some extent. But just trying to move around the battlefield without getting killed is too much to ask for? I'll never understand... Don't question it, just trade in your dead rogue for a Fighter or Barb and stand completely still in melee slugging out full attacks like the DM aparently wants. *sigh*

And...screw it...I need to rant on something else that pisses me off. The idea that creature's defenses against a SKILL should naturally increase as they level, even though SKILLS do not. I say something reasonable like, "If you want something to oppose Tumble, use the tumble skill or invent a new one, so the other guy actually has to pay a price for it like the tumbler did for his bonus," and nearly everyone in the thread treats it like crazy talk!

Here's the deal behind the Acrobatics vs CMD:

Acrobatics has a d20 roll, ranks, a +3 class skill bonus, and +Dex. That's before any extra modifiers.

CMD has 10 (substituting the roll), BAB (equivocal to skill ranks now), +Str, +Dex, and a size modifier that only gets significant once you get into the Gargantuan size or higher (even Huge is only +2).

The problems there is that CMD has two stats that apply, where the skill only has one.

Now the skill has a class skill bonus going for it, but anything with both a decent Strength and Dexterity... or a ridiculously high Strength, will be tough to get by.

Note, however, that picking up the Skill Focus feat is probably about all you'll need to close that gap, since at 10th level it spikes to +6.

.

Some comparisons:

3rd level Character will likely have a +10 to his Acrobatics.
An Ogre (Cr 3), has a CMD of 18.
That's a 65% chance of success. With Skill Focus at that level, it's 80%.

At 10th level, you'll likely see a bonus of +19.
A Clay Golem (Cr 10), has CMD of 30.
That's 50% chance without any modifiers. With Skill Focus (at +6), it's 75%.

Of course, adding in multiple opponents (+2 each) and moving full speed (+10) will make it exceptionally difficult against a same-CR melee heavy opponent.

But that's what magical items are for. Boots of springing and striding help with both your movement possible in a round, and give a flat bonus to acrobatics.
An elixir of Tumbling gives a +10 bonus for 1 hour (that's your full speed option right there).

StreamOfTheSky said:

Alright, some clarification would be nice on the little things PF changed when they consolidated Balance, Jump, and Tumble into one skill.

Acrobatics

1. Now you're always flatfooted while balancing, no matter how many ranks you have in Acrobatics?

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Only, if you use Acrobatics to perform move. I know it sounds weird, but that's how it is phrased. A sane GM would probably require an Acrobatics check to avoid falling off probably (i.e. you move as through standard Difficult Terrain, but without extra caution - you lose safety margin, but you get to keep Dexterity bonus).

In other words:
- move cautiously -> use Acrobatics -> remain flat-footed -> failure means you lose your move action, success: move at half speed
- move as if through Difficult Terrain -> use Acrobatics -> you are not flat-footed -> failure means you fall off or fall prone, success: move at half speed

2. A successful check lets you move across a difficult surface at half speed. Ok. If you beat the DC by ten or whatever, can you move full speed? What happens if you fail? Do you just not move on that move action, or do you fall? Do you need to fail by a certain amount to fall, or by any amount? Latter seems extremely harsh...
EDIT: +5 DC mod to move at full speed, oops.

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See above. Failure, while moving cautiously, results in a loss of move action.

3. In 3E, tumbling through a threatened square was DC 15 and through an occupied square 25, a difference of 10 points. In PF, it's only a 5 point difference, but the easier task is MUCH harder... In my limited experience, CMD is often pretty high, and with less chances to jack up a skill check in PF (no synergies, for instance)...can someone who maxes Acrobatics at every opportunity even expect to not get hit more than half the time? The level 6 character i'm building right now with max ranks in it has Acrobatics +11 (-1 armor check penalty) and a CMD of 23. He'd fail against himself more than half the time, and that's assuming perfectly flat ground and no other threatening opponents!

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This is intentional. Untouchable characters were too easy to build.

To build a professional tumbler:
- class skill: +3
- max ranks: +6
- Dexterity bonus: +3
- Skill Focus (Acrobatics): +3 (not recommending Acrobatic feat)
- no armor check penalty
- Rogue Talent: Ledge Walker (Ledge Walker (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to move along narrow surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a rogue with this talent is not flat-footed when using Acrobatics to move along narrow surfaces.)

You have +15 skill bonus, you need to roll 8 or more to succeed against yourself, which translates into 35% failure chance only.
At 10th level, your skill bonus will increase to +23 (Skill Focus increase due to number of ranks, 5 more ranks) or maybe +24 (if you manage to improve your Dexterity to grant +4).

4. Do you move at half speed through the squares you're tumbling, or for your entire move action? In 3E it was the former, in PF, the RAW looks like the latter, which is ridiculous if you're only tumbling through a single square. Also, if you fail the check to avoid provoking an AoO, are you still forced to move at half speed, or since an AoO interrupts and comes before the offending action, can you ammend your movement to not get screwed over on distance allowed for no gain? (ie, eat the AoO and then move full speed, like any schmoe without the skill would have done)

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You declare your action: I want to tumble past an opponent.
Your GM says: Fine. You move at half speed.
Then, when you would provoke an attack of opportunity, you make a check, but your speed is already reduced by half. Also note, that if you incur attack of opportunity, you still continue to move unless an opponent is able to somehow immobilize you (there are feats and abilities dedicated to this purpose).
AoO does not interrupt your action by itself, there must be a separate effect to achieve this. You may change your action (tumble in a different direction, complete move and proceed with a different action), but you already reduced your speed.

5. You now only need a 10 ft running start for jumps, and instead of training being the difference between landing on your feet or prone... the only thing that makes you land prone now is by failing by 5 or more? Is that right? Otherwise, no real issues with jumping, they didn't mess with it much, and it didn't need any real fixing anyway. I like standardizing the bonus/penalty to both be 4 per 10 ft above/below 30, instead of 6 for lower, 4 for higher.

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Yes.

6. Kinda obvious, but in 3E, you could occasionally reduce a fall by 20 ft of damage (more, if using the epic Tumble DC rules) -- 10 ft by jumping down deliberately, and 10 ft by rolling on the landing with tumble. Since in PF, they're both the same skill, that had to go....but why did they take out the roll portion that could apply to any fall, and only give you the skill option for deliberate jumps/falls? Makes no sense to me.

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No idea, sorry. Still, it makes sense.

7. Acrobatics DC modifiers. Anyone else think these can get a little...freaking crazy... very fast? Maybe for checks with flat DCs, like balancing or jumping a short distance, it's ok. But...dealing with a foe's CMD AND a bunch of these penalties would make Acrobatics for tumbling quickly become impossible, IMO.

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At higher levels (10+), proficient tumbler gets check results well into 30ties. My guess is that Jason intended wuxia style fighting to occur at 10+ level.
Currently, a character in my party, gets to roll over 40. And he is barely at 13th level.

8. For completeness sake...you now need to be level 3 for the higher fighting defensively and total defense AC bonus, instead of level 2. Just noting it.

I think I covered all of the changes, it's a surprisingly large amount for skills that IMO worked pretty well as written.

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The changes were intended to make the game challenging at higher levels. At lower levels, the game is simply more realistic (no superheroics). I assure you that once past 10, you will get to tumble at will against most opponents.
And, another welcome change, tumbling past tank characters (warriors) is risky at any level now - you don't get to ignore big guys in bulky armors anymore.

Which is a good thing, IMHO.

Regards,
Ruemere

StreamOfTheSky said:

And...screw it...I need to rant on something else that pisses me off. The idea that creature's defenses against a SKILL should naturally increase as they level, even though SKILLS do not. I say something reasonable like, "If you want something to oppose Tumble, use the tumble skill or invent a new one, so the other guy actually has to pay a price for it like the tumbler did for his bonus," and nearly everyone in the thread treats it like crazy talk!

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Back in beta, while Pathfinder had been in the process of coming up with combat maneuvers and what bonuses to apply, I had come up with this idea:

Combat Maneuvers Skills

When making a combat maneuver check, use one of the following skills.

Combat Stunt (Str, untrained): Used to make bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, and trip checks.

Combat Trick (Dex, untrained): Used to make disarm, feint, grapple, trip, and tumble* checks.

*In this case, Tumble is synonymous with "move without threatening space", not reducing fall damage.

These checks are opposed by 10 + the opponent's Combat Stunt or Combat Trick bonus, or the opponent's Touch AC, whichever is highest and depending on the maneuver (can't use Touch AC against tumbling).

Also, there would be a feat to add in bull rush, overrun and sunder with a Combat Trick (think martial arts style).

I also gave Fighters a half-level bonus to those skill checks, both due to their lack of skillpoints (and this being a skill "tax" sort of thing), and because they should be good at it. Note that it can be used untrained.
Monks also.

Those skills would also likely be added to many (if not most) creature types, with only a minor tweaking needed to make certain monsters tough to push around, or tumble past.


Would this have been too big a change, making it tied to skills? I guess the designers felt so... There's only so much backward compatibility can handle.

Kaisoku said:

Some comparisons:

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Thanks for giving examples. Would you say these monsters have about the average or median CMD for their CR, generally?

Kaisoku said:

3rd level Character will likely have a +10 to his Acrobatics.
An Ogre (Cr 3), has a CMD of 18.
That's a 65% chance of success. With Skill Focus at that level, it's 80%.

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I think +8 is more likely, maybe +10 for a Halfling. You get 3 ranks +3 class, maybe they'll have an 18 dex, but point buy is really expensive in PF, even with a +dex race, I'd expect a +2 or +3 more likely. And there could be a small armor check penalty. So...about half chance of working. Better with skill focus.

Kaisoku said:

At 10th level, you'll likely see a bonus of +19.
A Clay Golem (Cr 10), has CMD of 30.
That's 50% chance without any modifiers. With Skill Focus (at +6), it's 75%.

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10 ranks, +3 class...+6 dex at level 10? Factoring in everything as above and assuming a less massive dex...i'd put that at +17 or +18 at best. So, less than 50% chance of working! Should I be concerned that with levels, your ability to tumble has gotten worse?

Kaisoku said:

Of course, adding in multiple opponents (+2 each) and moving full speed (+10) will make it exceptionally difficult against a same-CR melee heavy opponent.

But that's what magical items are for. Boots of springing and striding help with both your movement possible in a round, and give a flat bonus to acrobatics.
An elixir of Tumbling gives a +10 bonus for 1 hour (that's your full speed option right there).

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Interesting, I'll keep those items in mind. Terrain in many combat environments can also significantly boost DCs, also. Out of curiousity, how often in high level PF does a Fighter have to suck down buffing potions in order to hit things more than half the time with his first attack? I'm guessing not often...

ruemere said:

To build a professional tumbler:
- class skill: +3
- max ranks: +6
- Dexterity bonus: +3
- Skill Focus (Acrobatics): +3 (not recommending Acrobatic feat)
- no armor check penalty
- Rogue Talent: Ledge Walker (Ledge Walker (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to move along narrow surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a rogue with this talent is not flat-footed when using Acrobatics to move along narrow surfaces.)

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Thank you for using a fair dex and other numbers. Not every tumbler will want to spend a feat, though, not every tumbler will have access to Rogue talents, and some tumblers may need to live with a -1 or -2 armor check penalty for their AC to be suvivable. But yeah, that's a fine build, let's work with that.

ruemere said:

You have +15 skill bonus, you need to roll 8 or more to succeed against yourself, which translates into 35% failure chance only.
At 10th level, your skill bonus will increase to +23 (Skill Focus increase due to number of ranks, 5 more ranks) or maybe +24 (if you manage to improve your Dexterity to grant +4).

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Where did you figure out your own CMD to be 23? In any case, CMD 23 at level 6 sounds reasonable, so you succeed 65% of the time. That's a fairly acceptable risk chance to me. But...for someone without all of those benefits listed above, for a less than absolute ideal tumbler, the failure chance hinges closer to 50%, which is simply too much for me to consider it worthwhile.

ruemere said:

You declare your action: I want to tumble past an opponent.
Your GM says: Fine. You move at half speed.
Then, when you would provoke an attack of opportunity, you make a check, but your speed is already reduced by half. Also note, that if you incur attack of opportunity, you still continue to move unless an opponent is able to somehow immobilize you (there are feats and abilities dedicated to this purpose).
AoO does not interrupt your action by itself, there must be a separate effect to achieve this. You may change your action (tumble in a different direction, complete move and proceed with a different action), but you already reduced your speed.

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As I figured. I was holding out hope in the line of thinking of, "If you fail a Search check, you're no worse off than someone who never bothered to try searching." In that case, anytime the movement loss actually mattered to me, it'd only be worth tumbling if the success rate was extremely high, IMO.

ruemere said:

No idea, sorry. Still, it makes sense.

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Well, getting less damage for jumping down expertly does make sense. That's why it was in 3E, but the same goes for rolling on landing to reduce damage, too. I just don't understand why if they could only keep one, they would remove the option that is more generally likely to come up.

ruemere said:

At higher levels (10+), proficient tumbler gets check results well into 30ties. My guess is that Jason intended wuxia style fighting to occur at 10+ level.
Currently, a character in my party, gets to roll over 40. And he is barely at 13th level.

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Wow, that's nice! What's he have? 13 ranks, +3 class, +6(?) dex +6 skill focus? Nah...the most that could ever get is a 38... Boots of Striding and Springing and Halfling race would help, but still be far from regularly rolling 40+.

As for "wuxia," a lot of the lesser penalties like uneven ground could come up during battle at any level if the DM cares much about using varied terrain and could make a low level acrobat's checks a nightmare, IMO.

ruemere said:

The changes were intended to make the game challenging at higher levels. At lower levels, the game is simply more realistic (no superheroics). I assure you that once past 10, you will get to tumble at will against most opponents.

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You assure me? CMD rises with level just as tumble does, and between the BAB and two stats adding to it, can potentially rise faster than Acrobatics in the long run, if you don't invest in Skill Focus. The examples I replied to above demonstrate pretty clearly that, whether your chance of success is 65%, 45%, or whatever... it is most certainly no where near "tumbling at will" by level 10. Really, the more I look at the numbers, the more it looks like Skill Focus is required just for the skill to even be reliable...

ruemere said:

This is intentional. Untouchable characters were too easy to build.
...........................

The changes were intended to make the game challenging at higher levels. At lower levels, the game is simply more realistic (no superheroics). I assure you that once past 10, you will get to tumble at will against most opponents.
And, another welcome change, tumbling past tank characters (warriors) is risky at any level now - you don't get to ignore big guys in bulky armors anymore.

Which is a good thing, IMHO.

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Ok, I need to address this, I guess. A high tumble character in 3E was not untouchable. Enemies could hit their AC just fine. Nor did tumble ever let you ignore the big melee brute. All it did was allow you to fight on your terms -- skirmishing with a move and standard attack each round, rather than standing still and full attacking like the big melee brute probably wanted. He could still move up on his turn and whack you, even if tumble auto-succeeds. The equilibrium of things is still maintained. And while skirmishing may benefit you more (or more likely, deprive the enemy of more benefits than it deprives you of), you, the acrobatic fighter, almost certainly had lower attack, hp, damage (PA fighters/barbs do more than sneak attackers with a single attack), and AC than the brute. So you needed any edge you could get.

As long as the enemies were challenging and could kill you, "automatic tumbling" didn't make combats easy for mobile characters. It made them possible to survive.

Why do people need to use such outrageous hyperbole when talking about 3E tumble?

StreamOfTheSky said:

[...]Where did you figure out your own CMD to be 23? In any case, CMD 23 at level 6 sounds reasonable, so you succeed 65% of the time. That's a fairly acceptable risk chance to me. But...for someone without all of those benefits listed above, for a less than absolute ideal tumbler, the failure chance hinges closer to 50%, which is simply too much for me to consider it worthwhile.

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50% chance to tumble translates into 50% chance of opponent getting an AoO, which in turn needs to hit you, and, even if hit, the damage caused may be unable to prevent you from completing your action.
The odds are still on your side, only you may get hit from time to time (do not forget, that Rogues get d8 for hitpoints now, Toughness and Favored class bonuses can add nicely to your hitpoint total, too).

The trade-off here is - if you do not build a dedicated tumbler, you will have to pay with your hitpoints the tax for being less than an accomplished professional.

As I figured. I was holding out hope in the line of thinking of, "If you fail a Search check, you're no worse off than someone who never bothered to try searching." In that case, anytime the movement loss actually mattered to me, it'd only be worth tumbling if the success rate was extremely high, IMO.

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With onset of PFRPG, AoO lost a bit of importance. Unless you want to play a clone of Raistlin Majere, you are likely to have enough hitpoints to spare.
Thanks to this change, party warriors are actually competent at hitting stuff.
My advice for you would be not to try to tumble around single powerful monsters - all other guys are pretty safe.

Wow, that's nice! What's he have? 13 ranks, +3 class, +6(?) dex +6 skill focus? Nah...the most that could ever get is a 38... Boots of Striding and Springing and Halfling race would help, but still be far from regularly rolling 40+.

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13th level Fighter/Rogue/Shadowdancer (don't really remember his class spread, though).
His specialty is Stealth, not Acrobatics (i.e. I meant that he was rolling into 40s with regards to Stealth).
Skill calculation:
+13 for ranks
+3 for class skill
+4 for Dexterity (19 Dexterity now, 16 base, +2 for being Human, +1 for level)
+6 for Skill Focus (Stealth)

So, his Stealth without any items is at +26. If I remember correctly he also has an item granting +5 to Stealth checks.

As for "wuxia," a lot of the lesser penalties like uneven ground could come up during battle at any level if the DM cares much about using varied terrain and could make a low level acrobat's checks a nightmare, IMO.

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That's why I said that PFRPG's focus shifted a few levels up.

You assure me? CMD rises with level just as tumble does, and between the BAB and two stats adding to it, can potentially rise faster than Acrobatics in the long run, if you don't invest in Skill Focus. The examples I replied to above demonstrate pretty clearly that, whether your chance of success is 65%, 45%, or whatever... it is most certainly no where near "tumbling at will" by level 10. Really, the more I look at the numbers, the more it looks like Skill Focus is required just for the skill to even be reliable...

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Okies, let's look at hard numbers:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier

Acrobatics check = D20 + Skill ranks + Dexterity modifier + Class skill bonus + Skill focus bonus


Let's compare components now:

D20
vs
10
- By default results in 55% success chance. Not bad.

Base attack bonus
vs
Skill ranks
- Base attack bonus progression is either half one's level, 3/4 of one's level or equal to one's level. An acrobat is going to be better unless the opposing party is equal to Fighter in terms of BAB.

Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
vs
Dexterity modifier + Class skill bonus + Skill focus bonus
- Hard to adjudicate this one, however unless you're fighting a BBEG or a good fighter, the chances are that the opposing party is unlikely to have high scores of both Strength and Dexterity. Size modifiers are not playing into the game unless your opponents are of size Huge or better (and in that case, the monster suffers from attack penalties). Sum of class skill bonus and skill focus bonus is equal to +6 or +9.

So, the real answer to your question would be: your chances depend heavily on who you want to tumble past. If it's bigger than you, armored and has horns, you'd better to try not to attract its attention.
That said, a skill bonus item and Dexterity bonus item would go a long way toward making you successful.

For example, for low level you may want to carry Elixir of Tumbling - lasts one hour, costs 125 GP to make, adds +10 to Acrobatics.

[...]As long as the enemies were challenging and could kill you, "automatic tumbling" didn't make combats easy for mobile characters. It made them possible to survive.

Why do people need to use such outrageous hyperbole when talking about 3E tumble?

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Because I have seen a tumbler get past front liners and kill casters several times. Rogues with poisoned sneak attacks, acting in tandem...
Because Tumble DC was static (DC 15), and once you got +14 on the skill, you did not really need to worry about opponents (unless you had a lot of diagonals to cross).

Now, I realize that tumbling is more difficult, requires more attention to make it more reliable. However, under PFRPG you also get more feats, magic items do not require Xp expenditure and Cat's Grace spell is not difficult to acquire.

Regards,
Ruemere

I always felt like a bit of a jerk, with my 3.5 swordsage, gallivanting about the battlefield as I pleased while everyone else had to actually take the enemy positions into account. Playing in a PF game and DMing another, my experience has been that tumblers occasionally get hit. It rarely ruins their day, and they agree that the times they need to move somewhere make tumble totally worth it.

One of them has Dodge and Mobility, and AoOs rarely get through to him. If you can spare the two feats, I'd recommend it over Skill Focus. The combination means he can tumble past mooks with ease, never being hit, and against a physically powerful boss monster, the Mobility matters more than the tumble - it has prevented me from confirming two crits!