Bouncing off an idea on how to make a Bard... More Bard

Okay, I understand that this game based around combat abilities. With that said, I want to throw out an idea and wonder what everyone thinks... I know the game is set, but what if a bards class feature was every tier you can choose one class feature and apply it to your character; but use it at heroic level and it levels up per tier.

IE: If you wanted to make a damage Bard, tier 1 you would take the Rogue sneak attack feature at 1 tier lower. So since Rogues at heroic tier do 2d6 Sneak Attack damage it would potentially be nerfed to 1d6 > 2d6 > 3d6 (at epic).

Then at Paragon he could take the fighters Weapon Talent. This would give the viability of the damage dealer without the full benefits of either class. Or, if you were able to wear chain (which isn't necessarily a feature but something the class has open and wouldn't cost a feat slot).

Even in the healer department it could work if you took the Paladin lay on hands feature. (Which would be used 1/2 of your wisdom mod).

Bards just don't feel like bards to me anymore. It's a class that generally is talked about as a joke (outside of 1st edition). Maybe not literally play wise though.

I think that would be a bit much, to be honest. The ability to multi-class into multiple different classes gives a fair bit of attack versatility, while also letting a bard build a huge list of skills. I'd be happier if Arcana wasn't automatically given with a bunch of separate multi-class feats, allowing a choice of a class skill instead, but it is what it is.

The idea of musical magic aiding party members seems very "Bard-like" to me. This might be the first Bard, since AD&D, that resonates for me. My last character was a Feylock/Bard multi, and I'll soon likely be playing a Bard/Warlord multi. The aim is to make the party significantly deadlier just by being in the room, even before using powers.

I think it wouldn't work. A class that, at Epic, gets the three best class features of 3 different classes is potentially far more abuseable than a class that has a clearly delineated set of class features.

Your solution is to have them 'one tier lower' in effect. But that only works with Sneak Attack because its scales 2d6/3d6/5d6. What about Rangers/Warlocks? 1d6 at Heroic becomes... 1d4?

What about Weapon Talent? For Fighters, that includes the Battlerager Fighter build, the Tempest fighter, the Brawler, etc. That's a lot harder to scale.

Right now, the Bard does get what you are looking for... in the form of unlimited multiclass feats. He can pick up capabilities from many classes... just versions balanced to acquire them.

For more than that... Hybrid is what you want. It basically does what you are looking for - takes the key abilities from two classes and gives you them, either in full or limited as appropriate.

If you want a Bard along the lines you are looking for, I think a blend of Hybrid and multiclassing is the way to go.

MrMyth said:

I think it wouldn't work. A class that, at Epic, gets the three best class features of 3 different classes is potentially far more abuseable than a class that has a clearly delineated set of class features.

Your solution is to have them 'one tier lower' in effect. But that only works with Sneak Attack because its scales 2d6/3d6/5d6. What about Rangers/Warlocks? 1d6 at Heroic becomes... 1d4?

What about Weapon Talent? For Fighters, that includes the Battlerager Fighter build, the Tempest fighter, the Brawler, etc. That's a lot harder to scale.

Right now, the Bard does get what you are looking for... in the form of unlimited multiclass feats. He can pick up capabilities from many classes... just versions balanced to acquire them.

For more than that... Hybrid is what you want. It basically does what you are looking for - takes the key abilities from two classes and gives you them, either in full or limited as appropriate.

If you want a Bard along the lines you are looking for, I think a blend of Hybrid and multiclassing is the way to go.

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If hybrid wasn't a complete abortion of an idea then yeah it would work. Hybrid isn't even good at it's own usage. The Bard idea I have is what a bard was meant to be, Proficient in all but Master of none type a deal.

Hybrid just made you play 2 characters at once without even being close to as good as just playing the full class itself. Outside of Monk for a damage build it's worthless. Especially with the stat differences, AND the fact you have to take implement abilities for a Monk. You're already killing half of what you are trying to do.

Then you take Multi-classing.... Which is great except your encounters and even utility powers become once per encounter. Why would I want sneak attack damage from a bard once per encounter when I could just be a rogue and get it every round?

Plus having to take two feats at least just for a gimmick is asinine. Not to mention have to nerf yourself and your primary stats just to make it work.

Also, having to take at least TWO FEATS to make that idea possible is just asinine. Plus you have to change your stats just to get all of these bonuses ONCE per encounter.

This is just on the damage side of things. Even Paladin etc is pretty much useless.

This is obviously not the whole idea, as for each class feature there would be rulings for but they are all pretty basic. The 1 damage die nerf is actually along the lines I thought of. But if in the build I'm thinking of is based all around 3d6, 2d4, 1d4 which maxes at 30 extra damage. I can see that it's good. But that's also if you want to max additional damage. There are better builds in doing so.

That is just off the top of my head. This isn't something I have been working on since 4E came out. Just a little something I thought about recently. Really really, recently. I haven't put a lot of time into it but if you have any SUGGESTIONS on how to make it work I'd appreciate it.

xXElaDriNDrizZztXx said:

If hybrid wasn't a complete abortion of an idea then yeah it would work. Hybrid isn't even good at it's own usage. The Bard idea I have is what a bard was meant to be, Proficient in all but Master of none type a deal.

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Well, let's just say I disagree - I think Hybrid does exactly what you want to do without breaking the balance of the game. You can make someone good at both melee and casting, or healing and sneaking, or whatever it is you want a Bard to be. I just don't think you have a solid understanding of what abilities are balanced against each other. You say you are talking about reasonable amounts of damage, but to assure that, you'd need to write unique entries for every class ability of every class in the game. Each one somehow toned down. That's basically what hybrid has done already...

...except it sounds like you find the hybrid versions and multiclassed versions too limited. Which means what you are really looking for is someone who can just stack bonuses on top of each other, who fights as well as a fighter, while stabbing with sneak attack, while healing and wearing good armor.

That's not good design.

Its not that I don't think your idea is viable. Its just that if you are already unsatisfied with the power level of hybrid or multiclass features, I suspect that what you are looking for in a final product would be potentially very unbalanced within 4E.

MrMyth said:

Well, let's just say I disagree - I think Hybrid does exactly what you want to do without breaking the balance of the game. You can make someone good at both melee and casting, or healing and sneaking, or whatever it is you want a Bard to be. I just don't think you have a solid understanding of what abilities are balanced against each other. You say you are talking about reasonable amounts of damage, but to assure that, you'd need to write unique entries for every class ability of every class in the game. Each one somehow toned down. That's basically what hybrid has done already...

...except it sounds like you find the hybrid versions and multiclassed versions too limited. Which means what you are really looking for is someone who can just stack bonuses on top of each other, who fights as well as a fighter, while stabbing with sneak attack, while healing and wearing good armor.

That's not good design.

Its not that I don't think your idea is viable. Its just that if you are already unsatisfied with the power level of hybrid or multiclass features, I suspect that what you are looking for in a final product would be potentially very unbalanced within 4E.

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The only thing Hybrid keeps in check is that nothing you do will be viable. I do have a solid understanding of what abilities go well with each other. That's why they are taking nerfs in order to make this idea work. And looking for someone who fights as well as a fighter and dealing damage like a rogue is NOT EVEN CLOSE to accurate. Why? You still don't get a fighters marks and or abilities. You don't get the great rogue abilities and damage, you're still getting your bard abilties. You already are spending many feats just to do okay instead of playing that class. You haven't helped anything besides pretend that 4E's implements are perfect.

You say it would be unbalanced, then give ideas to make it balanced instead of saying "Well it is what it is" it's just an idea.

And again, Hybrids aren't good at anything they do. They do NOT complement each other because you have to use abilities that don't work on the other class specific attacks. In a game where it was made for combat, they made you worse at exactly that.

This whole thing is just the start of an idea. What is implemented does not make Bards what they are at all. The Jack of all Trades is a Jack of buffing and healing. How ironic is that? Jack of nothing is what the Bard has become.

xXElaDriNDrizZztXx said:

If hybrid wasn't a complete abortion of an idea then yeah it would work. Hybrid isn't even good at it's own usage. The Bard idea I have is what a bard was meant to be, Proficient in all but Master of none type a deal.

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*My* bard was mean to be a highly knowledgeable master storyteller and charming manipulator whose insults literally burn people's ears, causing their pitiful wailing to invigorate my comrades, and whose taunts are so effective they goad enemies into standing in really stupid places, which is good, because that's what she is.

xXElaDriNDrizZztXx said:

The only thing Hybrid keeps in check is that nothing you do will be viable.

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And again, Hybrids aren't good at anything they do. They do NOT complement each other because you have to use abilities that don't work on the other class specific attacks. In a game where it was made for combat, they made you worse at exactly that.

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My paladin|warlock and swordmage|artificer, as well as my wife's wizard|swordmage and the CharOp board in general, disagree. If you just pick two classes, then yes, your hybrid will suck. If you're careful about picking two strong hybrids (as they vary in quality immensely) that synergize well and you find workarounds for any limitations the hybrid versions of classes (such as a hybrid paladin focusing on spamming Divine Sanction instead Divine Challenge), then you can produce some very strong characters.

Put me down for "its a bad idea and way overpowered" as well.

Bards can already do what you're looking for, without becoming ubergods.

I, and the player in my game playing a bard... would disagree. The 4e bard is very well done and provides a wide latitude of how it gets played.

The thing alot of people forget about that 'Jack of All Trades...' comment is the last half of the sentence... '... and master of none'

IME, the multiclass rules do an excellent job of letting you slightly shift the core of the class into a different role... without overshadowing the other options.

IMO, the hybrid rules provide a range of possibilities... but requires a higher level of system mastery to get a solid combination of classes and powers. Does this make them an epic-fail? I don't think so.

Of course, underneath many conversations regarding hybrid and multi-class is the question of the level at which the PC is being challenged. If the DM-Player arms race has pushed the skill DCs and monster defences up to the point where you need to optimize to survive, perhaps the answer to the hybrid/multi-class effectiveness is to drop that back down a notch or two. A 14 in your primary stat should not be a sign of doom.


I would also disagree about the 2e and 3e bard... having played the class in those editions. I had alot of fun with them and was effective, both in combat and out of combat. They were alot about buffing and debuffing even then.

xXElaDriNDrizZztXx said:

Then you take Multi-classing.... Which is great except your encounters and even utility powers become once per encounter. Why would I want sneak attack damage from a bard once per encounter when I could just be a rogue and get it every round?

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And why be a rogue, when the bard can do it all the time?

With a well rounded stat build, you can make great use of multiclass feats. There are also paragon path and epic destiny options and feats to empower your multiclass powers and traits and even get aditional ones.