Bouncing off an idea on how to make a Bard... More Bard

[Ryujin]

The only thing Hybrid keeps in check is that nothing you do will be viable. I do have a solid understanding of what abilities go well with each other. That's why they are taking nerfs in order to make this idea work. And looking for someone who fights as well as a fighter and dealing damage like a rogue is NOT EVEN CLOSE to accurate. Why? You still don't get a fighters marks and or abilities. You don't get the great rogue abilities and damage, you're still getting your bard abilties. You already are spending many feats just to do okay instead of playing that class. You haven't helped anything besides pretend that 4E's implements are perfect.

You say it would be unbalanced, then give ideas to make it balanced instead of saying "Well it is what it is" it's just an idea.

And again, Hybrids aren't good at anything they do. They do NOT complement each other because you have to use abilities that don't work on the other class specific attacks. In a game where it was made for combat, they made you worse at exactly that.

This whole thing is just the start of an idea. What is implemented does not make Bards what they are at all. The Jack of all Trades is a Jack of buffing and healing. How ironic is that? Jack of nothing is what the Bard has become.

They separated the Hybrid's bonuses for a reason; it's far too easy to create the uber-character, that could single handedly reduce a solo to dust. It balances against the ability to go nova, once per encounter, that multi-classed characters can frequently manage.

Once per encounter, for a really heavy hit, or all day, for an incrementally better one.

You've got options already, that aren't game breaking. Bard, with Warlock and Rogue multi. Bard, with Swordmage multi. Paragon multi-classing. Half Elf dilettante power. To pack all of the goodness you want, into one class, is just too much.

 

[DracoSuave]

Bards just don't feel like bards to me anymore. It's a class that generally is talked about as a joke (outside of 1st edition). Maybe not literally play wise though.

I don't remember drama class being about picking up the best weapon talents or knifing people or casting huge dramatic spells. It was about storytelling and the methods of portraying a character within a story told.

If you want a bard to be more of a bard, then you'd probably want abilities that are better at telling stories.

In other words, I don't think you don't know what a bard actually is.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Hi -

1. A lot of what a class is or is not, is largely dependent on what the player is, or is not.

2. I have abhorred multi-class characters throughout my D&D lifetime as being the territory of twinks. 4e actually does things such that hybrids and multi-class characters are options but not out of balance options. (mostly.. psionics I still loathe, but allow)

3. Bards are about role-playing first and foremost. You can do a lot of damage to a campaign storyline-wise if you do what you're "supposed to be doing".

There's nothing like riling up an entire town to riot over time; or humiliating the local nobility with a liar's tale about women's underwear and a night spent with the friars..

Bard, my third favorite class.

 

[Marauder_POV]

Yeah I gotta jump in and say that the bard rocks. Especially Half-elf bard

My bard is level 4 and she allready has a minimum of 6 in EVERY skill, with diplomacy at 15 and several others at 10-12. Thats roleplaying FTW.

Not a lot of damage, but as a support character there is a lot of de-buff, controller skills. Impelling force, vicious mockery(Man i love that spell)

BARDS FTW

 

[MrMyth]

The only thing Hybrid keeps in check is that nothing you do will be viable.

I... yeah, this hasn't been my experience at all. You can absolutely make a viable hybrid character. Either one who combines abilities in interesting ways, or who can switch between multiple roles as needed.

And looking for someone who fights as well as a fighter and dealing damage like a rogue is NOT EVEN CLOSE to accurate. Why? You still don't get a fighters marks and or abilities. You don't get the great rogue abilities and damage, you're still getting your bard abilties.

Sure, you don't get the fighter's defender abilities, but get the accuracy boost or special features of Tempest, Battlerager, Brawler... you don't get Rogue's more tangential features like First Strike or Artful Dodger, but you get their strongest feature, Sneak Attack. Being able to choose the best abilities of other classes on top of your bard abilities is just too strong.

Go ahead - give me your bardic character concept that you would like your new bard class to satisfy. And I bet I can build something viable for it using the hybrid or multiclass rules.

You say it would be unbalanced, then give ideas to make it balanced instead of saying "Well it is what it is" it's just an idea.

I did try giving ideas to make it balanced - by saying that Hybrid limitations or multiclassed limitations would be the appropriate levels of power for what you are looking for. You indicated you wanted something significantly more powerful, which I don't see any way of making work without being quite unbalanced.

This whole thing is just the start of an idea. What is implemented does not make Bards what they are at all. The Jack of all Trades is a Jack of buffing and healing. How ironic is that? Jack of nothing is what the Bard has become.

Hmm, let's see. Bards can use melee or ranged weapons. They can use implements. They can make melee attacks, close blasts of magical power, they can heal and they can buff. That sounds like a versatile character to me.

 

[mneme]

I don't remember anytihing about bards being uber multiclassers in 3.5. Where is this even coming from?