Slayer build sillyness

I don't know whether this has been covered before, and if it has, I appologise. I just had to share

A player in our group has made a Slayer to replace his shaman character in our Dark Sun game, now at 2nd level.

In short, he made a human slayer (with a gladiator theme, but that's more or less irrelevant), he made Dex his highest stat (20, after racial modifier), and took Melee Training (Dex) and Master at Arms as his 1st-level feats (Surprising Charge [Martial Power] is his 2nd-lvl choice).

His attack is now +11 vs. AC, and he deals 2d6+8 damage (brutal 1) on a regular, unmodified melee basic attack. Which is better than any Str/Dex combination could achieve.

Even better, at 8th level, when his Dex increases to 22, his damage automatically increases by 2 points. He also has a good AC (unsurprisingly) and a decent number of hp (Con 14). About the only area where this character "suffers" is his Athletics check.

A character with Str 18 and Dex 16 ends up worse in the attack & damage department -- at 2nd level, such a character would attack at +10, and his damage would be identical to the all-Dex slayer. A Str 20/Dex 14 character could gain the same attack & damage values as the all-Dex slayer, but would have lower hp and AC.

I find it interesting that a single feat (Melee Training [Dex]) can have so great influence on a character class. I wouldn't call this slayer overpowered, but the fact that a character so modified can out-perform the basic, original version of the class (or, in this case, a build) clearly suggests that it wasn't a planned result.

Was this build made accounting for the update to Melee training? Where is the sum of the +8 coming from? +6 from misc. sources seems pretty hefty at 2nd level. Then again I'm AFB and forget all of the Slayers cookies.

Does that include the fact that Melee Training now only allows for 1/2 of the non-STR stat in bonus damage?

IMO, that's because the Fighter was never really designed for fighting. It was designed for defending with the ability to fight as a secondary. Even though just about every other class that could be a defender was better at it, fighters never(IMO) got enough offensive-oritented skills to compete with other damage dealers.

Compare the Slayer to any of the other melee striker classes, TWF rangers, avengers, rogues, barbarians ect... All of these classes do equitable damage, particularly when paired with a Brutal weapon. Not to mention all of them have AC buffing abilities, a lvl1 Avenger comes out with something like a 17-18 AC(assumingthey stack dex/int), and they don't even get scale.

IMO, I think it's good to see the Slayer out-perform the "base" fighter so much, because that really brings it up to par with other striker classes. Which the fighter should have been able to do from the get-go.

twilsemail said:

Was this build made accounting for the update to Melee training? Where is the sum of the +8 coming from? +6 from misc. sources seems pretty hefty at 2nd level. Then again I'm AFB and forget all of the Slayers cookies.

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Ryujin said:

Does that include the fact that Melee Training now only allows for 1/2 of the non-STR stat in bonus damage?

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Yes, it does. And that's the brilliant bit.

Attack bonus breakdown: +5 Dex, +2 proficiency, +1 untyped (slayer bonus), +1 feat, +1 level, +1 enhancement, for a total of +11.

Damage breakdown: +2 one-half Dex modifier (Melee Training [Dex]), +5 Dex (Heroic Slayer class feature), +1 enhancement; total of +8.

shidaku said:

IMO, I think it's good to see the Slayer out-perform the "base" fighter so much, because that really brings it up to par with other striker classes. Which the fighter should have been able to do from the get-go.

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It seems you misunderstood. It's not that the slayer outdamages the base fighter, it's that a slayer "build" based on a single feat (Melee Training, which has been "nerfed" since its original appearance in PH2) outperforms the "standard" slayer.

It's definitely an interesting idea. I think the fairest thing is to compare it to the 20 strength/14 dex slayer. The damage of the 20 strength slayer scales a little better, though the difference is marginal and doesn't come into play until paragon. He has fewer hp but he has an extra feat so I'd say the advantage is with him on that. But then his AC is 1 point lower as you say which is significant. So yeah I might say that the dex slayer is a little better. Though without the books in front of me, I'd wonder if tanking his strength would limit some of his feat choices too much. But maybe not. The dex slayer could also pull out a bow very effectively.

I suspect that many will play a str/dex race with the slayer though, either a current race of some alternate version of a race with the new rules. 20 strength/16 dex would definitely be superior in damage, though you could still make an argument for 20 dex giving enough utility to still be better.

Perun said:

It seems you misunderstood. It's not that the slayer outdamages the base fighter, it's that a slayer "build" based on a single feat (Melee Training, which has been "nerfed" since its original appearance in PH2) outperforms the "standard" slayer.

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Haven't we been aware that this "Melee training" feat makes any martial-using class perform much better? So this shouldn't be a surprise at all?

Since it's my character Perun is talking about, I might as well chime in on this. One detail he got wrong is the attack bonus, which is actually +9 on an MBA, since I'm not actually proficient with the Gouge.

You'd have to lose either Suprising Charge (which would give you that +11) or ditch Master at Arms (for a +10). That said, those are both really good feats, and it's debatable if it would be worth it to give them up.

Particularly Master at Arms, since my RBA with a longbow is +11 vs AC, d10+11, which is definitely better than what most slayers can put together. Couple it with Unfettered Fury if you want more damage, or Mobile Blade if you to move around, and you have a very well rounded melee and ranged toolkit, so to speak.

Since it's my character Perun is talking about, I might as well chime in on this. One detail he got wrong is the attack bonus, which is actually +9 on an MBA, since I'm not actually proficient with the Gouge.

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Out of curiosity, do you plan becoming proficient with the Gouge?

I gotta say, I think the essentials melee classes that have been released so far do a good of being compatible with Dark Sun.

Anyways, Melee Training has been discussed to death here when the essential fighter builds were first previewed. And the effect, even after the nerf, is amazing. While it bothers some people, now that I'm getting reports from actual play, it still doesn't bother me.