Need help with a Paragon template revison

I don't like the static abilities of the current Paragon template. I like the idea of something that scales with the creature. It has been pointed out to me that my version isn't powerful enough for the IH rules, & the LA & CR adjustments are too high. What I need is constructive criticism on how to remedy these problems. I like the idea to much to abandon it, but game design has never been one of my strong points.
PARAGON
Hit Points: Max HP per die. If they already have this ability through another source, they instead gain half again their current hit die in bonus hit points
Speed: For every 10 HD, increase base movements by 10 ft
Armor Class: +1 natural armor per 10 HD
Immunities: disease, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis,
Keen Senses: gain darkvision 120’, low-light vision, & a constant True Seeing Effect
Resistances: Acid, Cold, Fire, Electricity & Sonic resistance 5 per 10 HD
Saving Throws: +1 all saves per 10 HD
Ability scores: gain 18 points to distribute amongst all ability scores +1 additional per 10 HD to distribute as desired.
Feats: 1 bonus feat per 10 HD
Skills: Add Int modifier to all skill checks, +1 all skill checks per 10 HD
Special Attacks: All special forms of attack, such as Two Weapon Rend, or DC’s of special abilities, gain a +1 to the DC for every 10 HD
Special Qualities
Gain DR 20/epic. Every 10 HD, can add either 10 ponts to the damage redcution, or choose another descriptor.
Spell resistance 20 +½ HD +1 per HD
Fast Healing equal to Con modifier, with an additional +1 per 10 HD
If the creature possesses a caster level, manifester level, or initiator level, it is increased by 1 per 10 HD.
Special Abilities: Every 10 HD, can choose an ability from the following list. Abilities can be chosen multiple times, stacking each time.

+2 to all attributes.
Gain six bonus feats.
Double natural armor bonus.
Grant the equivalent of any armor or weapon special ability with a +5 adjustment, +1 per additional 10 HD, or less adjustment.
Grant a fly speed equal to twice base land speed with perfect maneuverability, or any other movement type with a speed equal to the land speed.
Gain +1 caster level
May prepare two additional spells per day per spell level known, to a maximum of 9th level.
Gains two additional spells known per spell level it can cast, to a maximum of 9th level.
Gain a single primary natural attack dealing 4d6 points of damage, or two natural primary attacks dealing 2d6 points of damage.
Preternatural Grace: Add Charisma mod to AC, & half of Charisma mod as a resistance bonus to all saves.
Gain immunity to mind-affecting effects or immunity to a single energy or effect of choice
Can choose a single class ability. This ability functions at 1/4 of creatures HD. If taken multiple times, can choose to either improve an existing ability by ¼ each time taken, or select a new class ability.
CR: +8, +1 per 10 HD
LA: +5, +2 per 10 HD

Ah - the Dicefreaks version of the Paragon template. Maybe one or two things different.

Hey shadethief dude!

I'm a tad out of practice on 3E.

The main problem with the Paragon template is that you cannot increase Hit Dice*. Which throws everything out of whack, meaning you have to add all the benefits of more Hit Dice, without actually adding more Hit Dice. Thats the main complication.

*Simply because humanoid races have levels when they should have Hit Dice AND Levels (As I'm sure I note in the Epic Bestiary).

A far simpler way would have been to multiply Hit Dice as base (probably x4 like my Legendary Animal template). But of course, without introducing humanoid hit dice to all humanoids first, this won't work.

Which takes us back to your redesign. Okay I like the idea of scaling the template. However the fairest thing to do is just pick a number and base everything off that. If you are sticking to the 10 HD increments then I'd suggest a flat bonus of +2, to stuff like AC, Ability Scores, Attack bonus, Saves, Skills, DCs etc.

Special Abilities/Qualities = equivalent to two Divine Abilities/10 HD
Speed = stay the way you have it

The other aspects are a bit more complicated...I'll mull things over but I'm not sure how much more help I could be.

Upper_Krust said:

The main problem with the Paragon template is that you cannot increase Hit Dice*. Which throws everything out of whack, meaning you have to add all the benefits of more Hit Dice, without actually adding more Hit Dice. Thats the main complication.

*Simply because humanoid races have levels when they should have Hit Dice AND Levels (As I'm sure I note in the Epic Bestiary).

A far simpler way would have been to multiply Hit Dice as base (probably x4 like my Legendary Animal template). But of course, without introducing humanoid hit dice to all humanoids first, this won't work.

Click to expand...

U_K, I don't know if I'm alone in this, but... I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about, here. Is this a new idea? I really don't remember ever hearing anything like that, before.

DamienWilacoth said:

Ah - the Dicefreaks version of the Paragon template. Maybe one or two things different.

Click to expand...

I'm the same person who wrote that one. I changed a couple of things, but I'm not sure how to make it a more attractive template. I posted it here & a few other places, trying to get some creative feedback.

Hey Belzamus matey!

Belzamus said:

U_K, I don't know if I'm alone in this, but... I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about, here. Is this a new idea? I really don't remember ever hearing anything like that, before.

Click to expand...

Its in the Epic Bestiary under the Hit Dice (by size) tables:

2ft of height = 1 HD.

Ergo a basic human should have 3 Hit Dice before Class Levels, as would an elf, orc, drow etc.

Thus a Dire Human would have 6 HD, a Behemoth Human 12 HD etc.

Interestingly, they did follow that principle pretty closely on the human sized animals.

In 3.5:

Wolf - 2 HD
Leopard - 3 HD
Hyena - 2 HD
Cheetah - 3 HD

The whole thing is kind of odd -- I don't think a wolf or cheetah is actually physically tougher than a human being.

Someone obnoxious (but clever) already did a paragon revision. It's abilities are in line with the Amidah and it's CR and LA are accurate. Of course the Amidah, if I recall, was in need of revisions according to some of Krusty's earlier statements, as it's abilities are pre-Ascension and have since been altered.

For example...the Amidah's wish spell-like ability should actually be the Alter Reality ability (Cosmic) and Evil Eye should include Inner Eye (Cosmic) and requires updating. Of course, such statements are likely lost somewhere on these neverending forums, even if not entirely forgotten.


Paragon (Perfect One)

Among the population of every kind of creature are some specimens that are its weakest, worst representatives. Likewise, every population has it's paragons: the strongest, smartest, luckiest, and most powerful of the species. Paragons may represent the mythical First Creature, created in it's perfect form by some creator deity, or perhaps the evolutionary endpoint of a race after thousands of years of steady improvement. Sometimes, paragons just spring up accidentally, when all the factors are right.

Creating a Paragon

“Paragon” is a template that can be added to any creature (referred to hereafter as the “base creature”).

The paragon uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities, except, as noted here.

Size and Type: Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice: A paragon uses d20's for Hit Dice and always has maximum hit points per die.

Speed: All movement speeds are tripled.

Armor Class: A paragon retains the armor bonuses of the base creature and acquires the following.

- Deflection Bonus (Ex): A paragon gains a deflection bonus equal to it's Charisma modifier.

- Luck Bonus (Ex): A paragon gains a +30 luck bonus to it's armor class (see Fortuity).

Special Attacks: A paragon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below. Save DCs are 10 + 1/2 the paragon's Hit Dice + the paragon's Charisma modifier + 30 (see Fortuity), unless noted otherwise.

- Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At will - limited wish. Caster Level equals Hit Dice + 30 (see Fortuity). The Save DC is Charisma-based.

Special Qualities: A paragon retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also those described below.

- Damage Reduction (Ex): A paragon gains damage reduction 75/cursed and epic.

- Fast Healing (Ex): A paragon gains fast healing 50.

- Fortuity (Ex): A paragon adds a +30 luck bonus to: armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, manifester level checks, skill checks, turning checks); damage rolls; difficulty class (for any powers, psi-like abilities, special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; power resistance; saving throws; spell resistance; and turn resistance (if applicable).

- Inner Eye (Ex): A paragon can bend fate to it's will. A paragon always gains the best dice rolls in any given situation. However, a natural '20' is not an automatic success when using this ability.

- Resistances (Ex): A paragon gains resistance to cold 50 and fire 50.

- Spell Resistance (Su): A paragon gains spell resistance equal to 10 + Hit Dice + 30 (see Fortuity).

Saves: A paragon gains a +30 luck bonus on all its saving throws (see Fortuity).

Abilities: A paragon gains a +37 bonus to all ability scores.

Skills: A paragon gains a +30 luck bonus on all it's skill checks (see Fortuity).

- Maven (Ex): A paragon has mastered many skills. A paragon gains maximum ranks in all it's class skills and half it's maximum in all cross class skills.

Feats: A paragon gains 5 bonus feats.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +17 (with no equipment), or +26 (with 40 levels of equipment).

Treasure: Double standard.

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +26 (with no equipment), or +40 (with 40 levels of equipment).

I like that a lot, Mr. Satan. It fits with the Amidah really well.

Hey all!

I like the Limited Wish. I do disagree with the +37 Ability Scores though.

The +75 was meant to be x5 the Paragon's +15 (IIRC).

I understand the idea of doubling it. But the Paragon template was roughly about on a par with the Quasi-deity (or maybe Demi-deity), while the Amidah was more akin to an Elder One.