Threats to Nentir Vale: Fell Court

Another group of really quite nicely designed monsters from the look of things, with quite a lot of fluff as expected - but it is looking ridiculously specific. Not something I really want from a general monster book, while it works perfectly in something designed specifically like Gloomwrought. In any event I have to admit the level 2 lurker is ridiculously powerful. The CA effect to prevent the spending of healing surges is really impressive. At low levels (it is only level 2!), that's asking for a massive beating and a half there. Smoke form allows them to escape being attacked entirely, then reappear where they choose and lay a solid 2d6+14 smack down. If that has CA - let's face it they'll have their choice of targets - that's a good chunk of damage and NO healing your way out of it (unless its surgeless). That's *amazingly* powerful. Two of these guys could easily wreck a party that fails to realize how strong they are quickly enough. They're also level 2! I'm probably going to put these in the category of "power monsters" with jackalweres to be honest.

The power that requires a turn in smoke form has a hilarious typo though. It goes from +5 vs. reflex to +6 vs. AC when the target is bloodied (a net DECREASE in accuracy). It's obvious what the intent is, but it's an amusing mistake none the less. I really hope we see more monsters like the Wandering tower that aren't so incredibly fluff specific. The current two they have shown are a bit too specific for my liking.

Edit: Looking at them, these are another group of monsters powerful enough you could level them right into paragon without blinking an eye. The powers are ridiculously good. Just adjust the damage and bam, there you go. Perfectly competent paragon monsters. They really are a tier too low for their abilities and stats. They even feel - from their fluff in fact - they should be paragon tier antagonists.

It does look interesting for sure. Worth noting that Smoke Form is a standard action, so the 2d6+14 damage is "only" every other round. Also, two of these aren't as effective regarding the combat advantage bonus. I think pairing one with a brute or a soldier will be much nastier :evil:

Jack99 said:

It does look interesting for sure. Worth noting that Smoke Form is a standard action, so the 2d6+14 damage is "only" every other round.

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It doesn't matter, because it's high damage targeting reflex AND if you use it when you have CA prevents healing. The implications of front loading damage when you want it at level 2 is much greater than attacking 2 rounds in a row. For example, they can smoke form and be immune to all attacks turn 1, wait for a PC to be bloodied by round 2 and gank that PC instantly (Gaining a bonus to attack against the bloodied target, probably easily get CA and also prevent the unconscious PC from getting healed back up). Additionally it also targets reflex, so the DPR of 2d6+14 is actually greater than 1d6+7 (as AC is higher than reflex in many cases for a lot of characters).

You have to realize they only need enough damage this way to drop a PC unconscious in a single blow (often from bloodied, which is exactly how I would be using them). That is effectively a helpless character with no actions who cannot spend surges: Meaning the PCs cannot deal with it unless they can heal that character with surgeless healing.

Aegeri said:

Meaning the PCs cannot deal with it unless they can heal that character with surgeless healing.

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A character on 0 or less hp who receives surge-based healing regains 1 hp if they can't spend a surge*.

It's not much, but at least the PC is conscious and attacking.

* (unless the RAW specifically refers to "has no surges to spend", I'm AFB)

Colmarr said:

A character on 0 or less hp who receives surge-based healing regains 1 hp if they can't spend a surge*.

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That's if they have 0 surges and are dying when they need to spend a surge. It restores them to 1 HP. This power flat out prevents them from spending surges in the first place, making it a different problem than if you have 0 surges. Looking at it, this makes an interesting RAI vs. RAW debate if you should be able to heal the target when they can't spend surges. By RAW, no it doesn't look like it but you could make a good RAI argument they could.

Edit: On thinking about it, healing a character for 1 HP like this would be a terrible strategy. For one thing, that would encourage them to hit the character again (and they'll have CA due to being prone at least). If there were two of them, the second would more than likely drop them to negative blooded (2d6+14 damage is a LOT of damage at level 2 to a 1 HP character). I'd probably not allow a PC to heal a dying character for 1 HP under this effect. Then again, a burst or blast against an unconscious character could equally kill them.

Which is why I say this is incredibly powerful against a level 2 (or god help you, level 1) party. This creature just feels like something that should be in paragon tier.

Aegeri said:

It doesn't matter, because it's high damage targeting reflex AND if you use it when you have CA prevents healing. The implications of front loading damage when you want it at level 2 is much greater than attacking 2 rounds in a row.

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I agree on this.

For example, they can smoke form and be immune to all attacks turn 1, wait for a PC to be bloodied by round 2 and gank that PC instantly (Gaining a bonus to attack against the bloodied target, probably easily get CA and also prevent the unconscious PC from getting healed back up). Additionally it also targets reflex, so the DPR of 2d6+14 is actually greater than 1d6+7 (as AC is higher than reflex in many cases for a lot of characters).

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If you have two of them using smoke form (at least during the first round), who is going bloody the PC's? I can only speak for my own games, but if there is effectively only 3 standard monsters of equal level (assuming a n+0 combat), they will get shredded in short order, as it will increase the possibilities and ease of focusing fire.

Look, I am not saying they aren't very powerful. I was merely pointing out two things.

1) Smoke Form is a standard action, which limits the monster in some ways (although making it anything else would make things seriously overpowered)

2) Using two together (teaming up on a character) might not be the most effective way of using the monster.

Aegeri said:

Edit: On thinking about it, healing a character for 1 HP like this would be a terrible strategy. For one thing, that would encourage them to hit the character again (and they'll have CA due to being prone at least). If there were two of them, the second would more than likely drop them to negative blooded (2d6+14 damage is a LOT of damage at level 2 to a 1 HP character).

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You're forgetting that the PC on 1 hp has a full round of actions to (among other things) stand up, their allies are now focused on the threat to them and that the 2d6+14 is every second turn.

It's certainly not a good position to be in, but I don't think it's as bad a strategy as you claim. It's definitely better than leaving the character helpless for a coup de gras (which is your only other option if you don't have surgeless healing).

Jack99 said:

Using two together (teaming up on a character) might not be the most effective way of using the monster.

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I think I agree with Aegeri here. Two of these things emerging from smoke form flanking a controller are a definite possibility for a one turn kill. 42 points of damage in a round will send most level 1 or 2 controllers straight to "do not pass go".

When viewed that way, I admit to muttering "What the hell, Wotc?!"

I'm wondering if you've used the new wraiths or gargoyles in play Jack, because you'll soon see that the lurker powers that are standard this for X bonus next round are immensely effective. Wraiths and Gargoyles are brutal monsters that can rapidly pick off any PC who ends up in trouble. It actually isn't very hard to bloody a PC in one round with 3 monsters at all, with the other two being able to guarantee knocking that character out next round.

Bear in mind that Wraiths and the Gargoyle can still be attacked, these ones can't whatsoever and can pick whatever they want on the battlefield. It's actually not the limitation you might think it is. In fact by being so defensive (wraiths, gargoyles, these guys) they're actually forced to pick a later moment in a combat. In this example, 2d6+14 damage is not significant round 1. Round 2 with your pick of targets and any bloodied PC you like is a big difference. Given many monsters can easily bloody a PC at heroic tier these days - even with just around 3 (more than likely 4 of them with a group of minions) creatures on the board.

In a hard encounter, level 2 lurkers with a very strong attack that can't be attacked are basically worth their weight in gold. That's the other thing you didn't consider: Having 5 standard monsters AND 2 of these. That's around an EL4 encounter, which would be EL+2 for a level 2 party and only around EL+1 for a level 3 party. Believe me, that EL+2 or EL+1 is going to feel a lot harder with those guys than if you picked two other level 2 monsters.

Colmarr said:

You're forgetting that the PC on 1 hp has a full round of actions to (among other things) stand up, their allies are now focused on the threat to them and that the 2d6+14 is every second turn.

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Actually I'm specifically thinking of a second one killing the PC first. Bear in mind that at level 2 when you are on 1 HP, all one has to do is hit you once and the minimum of 16 damage will kill you more than likely. You only survive if you have over 30 HP in that situation - not easy at level 2. Making a 1 HP character a viable target isn't actually a smart idea unless there was only 1 of them (which may be the ideal way to use these creatures).

It's certainly not a good position to be in, but I don't think it's as bad a strategy as you claim. It's definitely better than leaving the character helpless for a coup de gras (which is your only other option if you don't have surgeless healing).

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Actually I rarely coup de grace even before I removed the rule from my games entirely. A 1 HP conscious PC is actual a viable target, while ignoring the unconscious character to go after something more threatening is the more likely way I would run the creature (as they want to down opponents still fighting, not attack something certain to not fight back). I only run a very very very limited number of creatures that will coup de grace (or in my own games, actually actively attack unconscious PCs with attacks). Perytons and Demons are good examples - Perytons because they want to consume that specific creatures shadow (so its a fluff based reason) and demons because they are jerks. The vast majority of creatures I use though won't kill an unconscious character over going for someone else. The exceptions are burst attacks and when I'm forced to by a power: Like the Anakore who killed the executioner in my Dark Sun game. The bloodied claw attack (two attacks) only targets bloodied enemies and makes two attacks. I downed him with the first attack and had no choice but to attack him a second time - even if I would have wanted to hit the Battlemind instead.

Edit: Oh wow. I hadn't even considered just attacking a weaker controller or similar right off with them. I was thinking specifically of attacking a bloodied PC, but yeah that's a good point. You could just pick a low HP controller type and just outright attack them. With 2d6+14 damage a hit, that's 21 damage each. That's probably more than enough to reduce a controller to around 2-3 HP on the first attack and the second to then kill them outright.

I was actually over thinking how to use them. Bear in mind the smoke power means they CAN'T be affected and can pick whoever they like out to attack.

Aegeri said:

Actually I rarely coup de grace even before I removed the rule from my games entirely. A 1 HP conscious PC is actual a viable target, while ignoring the unconscious character to go after something more threatening is the more likely way I would run the creature (as they want to down opponents still fighting, not attack something certain to not fight back).

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I see this argument a lot and, to be honest, I don't think it makes much sense in 4e.

With the change to healing below 0 - a consequence of healing magic and even 'verbal encouragement' that is observable in-game - a downed PC is almost never guaranteed to stay down, and even worse they're almost guaranteed to spring back up with 1/4 or more of their maximum hit points.

Going off to fight someone else is ignoring an opportunity to ensure that the helpless target is out of the fight for good.

It's more accurate IMO to say that we don't CdG because it's generally a d!ck thing to do to your friends in a game. And that argument applies equally to intentionally dealing 2d6+14 damage to a PC on 1 hp

I actually disagree (but this is clearly going to end up as a discussion for another thread!), because to a monster there is no difference between 1 HP and 30 HP. A PC who is up and fighting is one that can be targeted and could target them. I would target a 1 HP PC - but I would not actively have a monster attack a PC who was unconscious. I would regard healing a PC to 1 HP with high damage lurkers around as tactical stupidity and take advantage of it accordingly. I wouldn't regard someone who gets knocked unconscious as a free for all. For the record, I also sometimes ignore PCs who are stunned and dominated too. If you can't act, then I am not going to pay you attention and will attack something else - unless there is good reason to attack the stunned PC (the parties bloodied leader for example).

On the other hand, a smart leader who delayed after the lurkers turns and ensured they couldn't attack before the PCs turn would reap the reward. Even so, 1 HP is an extremely dangerous situation to be on with lurkers in a combat and no way of spending surges until the end of said lurkers next turn.

To be honest on thinking about it, my problem is the smoke form power. If they could be targeted by attacks and had just concealment or something (or maybe a flat bonus to defenses, or picked up insubstantial - I dunno) I think it would be fine. It's the fact these creatures absolutely dictate the battlefield and level 2 PCs can do nothing about that is what makes them dangerous. At the same time, maybe just using 1 of them and never using more than that? The most abusive things I've thought of in this thread use them in pairs in some ways. Much like how Jackalwere bravos are only really broken by using the Deceiver in the same combat (and using the CdG rules).

Edit: Alternatively, they could have been paragon monsters. They feel in every single way like a monster that should be in paragon tier: Not heroic.