Threats to Nentir Vale: Fell Court

[Jack99]

I actually disagree (but this is clearly going to end up as a discussion for another thread!), because to a monster there is no difference between 1 HP and 30 HP. A PC who is up and fighting is one that can be targeted and could target them. I would target a 1 HP PC - but I would not actively have a monster attack a PC who was unconscious. I would regard healing a PC to 1 HP with high damage lurkers around as tactical stupidity and take advantage of it accordingly. I wouldn't regard someone who gets knocked unconscious as a free for all. For the record, I also sometimes ignore PCs who are stunned and dominated too. If you can't act, then I am not going to pay you attention and will attack something else - unless there is good reason to attack the stunned PC (the parties bloodied leader for example).

Seems we play our monsters in a very similar way. Do you constantly kill your players' characters as well? I have a fairly high turn-over

Edit: Alternatively, they could have been paragon monsters. They feel in every single way like a monster that should be in paragon tier: Not heroic.

I agree on this. However, in some twisted way, it's okay in my book. I think it's a good way to differentiate normal monsters from say planar monsters. They should "feel" different, and perhaps slightly harder, even though still technically the same level as goblins or kobolds. At least in my worlds.

 

[Aegeri]

I have killed a few PCs: I'm not terribly lethal, minding in saying that I've killed 3 PCs in one campaign and 2 in the other. One game is now level 6 and the other is level 5. Perhaps that is considerably more than normal :O. Mostly my combats have run my PCs to the wire numerous times and felt pretty brutal - without actually killing them (which is my true goal!).

I can see your point though about making planar threats feel more dangerous. It's mostly just that these creatures are really well above their power curve. Then again there are quite a few other examples, with Jackalweres being the number 1 culprit. On thinking about it, one of them might be okay without feeling omg what the hell is this to the PCs. Using 2 of them is liable to have dice being thrown.

 

[Mummolus]

I like these guys on a level beyond "I can really piss off my OAssassin with that". They're flavorful and easy to reskin into another campaign. I've got the PCs in my Dark Sun game about to deal with some tieflings, and changing Smoke Form into Sand Form (arguably unnecessary, but I'm using the tieflings as essentially fremen and I like the flavor) is easy and allows for what should be an interesting fight.

 

[Jools]

The above argument that these npcs are a tad over-powered does sound convincing but it should also be mentioned that their write up is quite delightful. Very inspiring. I could see myself using these in a campaign.

 

[Psikus]

that's a good chunk of damage and NO healing your way out of it (unless its surgeless). That's *amazingly* powerful.

Interestingly, the fact that the heal-negating trait is "save ends" rather than lasting for a full turn is a major boon for the PCs, here. Most leaders will have some way to grant extra saves so, while this is definitely something to take into account, it doesn't screw players as badly as it would seem. Moreover, having the leader delay until after the PC has taken a turn and made a save (provided the PC wasn't unconscious, of course) could also help, here.

You can also defend somewhat effectively against these monsters, at least with certain classes. Paladins, battleminds, wardens and swordmages can mark them even in Smoke Form. Oddly, this is one of the few times where I think the fighter gets screwed as a defender - the fact that knights and cavaliers also have a hard time here will come of as less of a surprise.

Overall, I love them. They are definitely powerful, but they are (thankfully) very far from the TPK potential of Drake Swarms of old, and should be counterable with appropriate PC tactics.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I feel an urge to support Aegeri here:

Frontloading damage works: the 3rd level Eassasin designed as an elite monster put a full hp level 3 fighter from 45hp to 0 in one strike. After that however it was an easy fight for the PCs. (Damage spikes in general are way undervalued by some folks in these forums)

I think the smoke form power needs an errata. No, becasue it is too good to attack with it... if I didn´t miss an important part, the Monster can just turn it on and follow your PC to wherever it wants. You can follow the PC´s forever...

 

[Rune]

I think the smoke form power needs an errata. No, becasue it is too good to attack with it... if I didn´t miss an important part, the Monster can just turn it on and follow your PC to wherever it wants. You can follow the PC´s forever...

Is that a bad thing? Sounds like a plot hook waiting to happen!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes, a very bad thing, to be honest. Nearly kill a monster -> smoke form. No profit for the PCs.

 

[Psikus]

Yes, a very bad thing, to be honest. Nearly kill a monster -> smoke form. No profit for the PCs.

You could finish off the bugger with a damaging zone, though there aren't many of those that aren't dailies. But cloud of daggers and similar stuff work great, there...

Anyway, that's an annoying interaction, but it's not the first time I've seen it in a lurker. I remember some gargoyles which could keep going forever... They really should prevent those scenarios.

 

[Dausuul]

You're forgetting that the PC on 1 hp has a full round of actions to (among other things) stand up, their allies are now focused on the threat to them and that the 2d6+14 is every second turn.

It's certainly not a good position to be in, but I don't think it's as bad a strategy as you claim. It's definitely better than leaving the character helpless for a coup de gras (which is your only other option if you don't have surgeless healing).

Why would the scoundrels coup de grace the fallen PC? As a PC, do you coup de grace enemies before the end of the fight? That's a whole standard action wasted on an enemy who's no longer a threat.

With the change to healing below 0 - a consequence of healing magic and even 'verbal encouragement' that is observable in-game - a downed PC is almost never guaranteed to stay down, and even worse they're almost guaranteed to spring back up with 1/4 or more of their maximum hit points.

But this is only possible if the enemy has some sort of healing capability. In-game, I would argue that NPCs and monsters are used to fighting other NPCs and monsters, who very seldom have healing powers. PCs don't coup de grace as a rule, because they're used to enemies who go down and stay down; monsters don't do it for the same reason--although they may change their tactics after seeing a PC jump back up the first time.

In any case, these guys shut down enemy healing. Why would they ever CdG? Total waste of a round, from their point of view.