Tomb of Horrors - example of many, or one of a kind?

Patryn of Elvenshae · Jun 1, 2011

Celebrim said:
Posting without spoiler tags is very bad form.

Eh - you'll forgive me, I hope, if I don't worry about it on such an old module in a thread about that module.

How long does a flight spell last in 1E? In 3E, it's minutes (unless you're tossing about Overland Flight spells, which are higher in level, slower, and much less maneuverable but have durations in hours).

ExploderWizard · Jun 1, 2011

Bullgrit said:
The problem is that *everything* is a feature.

Treasure was “devilishly” hidden in classic D&D. You had to search everything to find it.

Traps were everywhere in classic D&D. You had to leave stuff alone to avoid them.

Every conversation around here about classic D&D becomes a daisy chain of “it’s your fault.” Didn’t search the random bags: you missed the treasure. Did search the random bags: you fell for the trap. Either way, it’s because you just weren’t a “skilled player.”

Nothing was wonky back in classic D&D – “you” just don’t/didn’t understand the brilliance.

This is not to say that everything was wonky with classic D&D. Classic D&D had truly wonderful stuff as well as really wonky stuff. I just find it problematic for conversations and discussions to have *everything* presented as wonderful and brilliant. I also find it insulting to the truly great stuff of classic D&D.

Bullgrit

One mans wonky is anothers brilliant feature. This is why there is no cookie cutter standard of old school play.

Your character can die searching for treasure is both a feature and a bug it just depends on who you ask.

It was in fact all wonderful. Part of what made it so was the encouragement from the material to toss out what you didn't want and make it your own. When all is said and done then anything that isn't fun actually is your fault.

I don't know how other DMs do things but I take responsibility for what goes into my games whether I'm using a module or not. I wouldn't run the tomb for a group that I thought wouldn't enjoy that style of play.

Celebrim · Jun 1, 2011

Bullgrit said:
And what party would open the door and think, "Let's cast fly on everyone"?

No, but by the time they get to this room, a party is very likely to have said: "Let's not attempt this further without having fly on the party scout." Ours did. That's how we made it this far without dying, and it's how we traversed this room. The party magic-user would prepare flight each day, and we'd probe forward until we ran out, then we'd rest. The party scout, my thief actually, also had two potions of flight. I consumed one the first day in the entrance corridor to ensure that I never suffered an unexpected fall, and a second one after moving through the chapel successfully. We didn't lose anyone until the boss fight (which is unfair, but the smart party will avoid it), and at that point we just fled.

You're saying to the other observers, "This is easy.

No, this is hard. There is no doubt at all that it is a hard module. However, it is also fair.

when he walks around the left corner and falls in the trap, you say, "Well, he's just not a skilled maze walker."

If he knows its a trap filled maze, darn right that's what I say. Especially if just having a rope around his waist and 3-4 buddies belaying the other end will negate 80% of the traps he encounters. You did bring a rope, right?

True story, we got to the ToH, and opened the entrance corridor, and I said, "Ok, I'm going to need a 10' pole here. Who has the 10' pole?" "Noone?" "Ok, let's go back to town, because there is no way we are going to survive something called the Tomb of Horrors without a 10' pole."

Celebrim · Jun 1, 2011

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
Eh - you'll forgive me, I hope, if I don't worry about it on such an old module in a thread about that module.

How long does a flight spell last in 1E? In 3E, it's minutes (unless you're tossing about Overland Flight spells, which are higher in level, slower, and much less maneuverable).

If I remeber correctly, it's turns: ei 10 minutes/level. IIRC, the potions I was drinking lasted 1d6+1 turns. It's been more than 20 years, and I don't have the books at hand.

billd91 · Jun 1, 2011

Bullgrit said:
But there are plenty of examples in D&D adventures of valuable/magical things hidden by invisibility, and dirty things that can be cleaned up to value or magic.

This is sort of my point: There are many examples both ways – things you shouldn’t mess with, and things you should mess with. And often there is no clue for which is the right action: leave it alone, or investigate it.

Elven cloaks are found in piles of rags.
Yellow mold is found in piles of rags.

A dirty-looking item is coated in contact poison.
A dirty-looking item can be cleaned up to be valuable.

Any of the items above are not bad design, per se. But the lack of *any* clue, or especially the existence of a misleading clue, does make for bad design – unless you think requiring 50/50-chance guesses are good design. What makes things bad for discussions on this subject are when people claim that making the wrong/bad decision – based on *no* clue – means the Player is not good or skilled.

If you search the pile of rags and find an elven cloak: Skilled Player!

If you search the pile of rags and set off the mold: Poor Player!

Skilled or Poor claim based on nothing but a blind action by the Player. What if the Player rolled a die to make the decision?

Bullgrit

Indeed there are many things hidden invisibly, in trash, and so on. But there are ways to begin to search things that may avoid setting off things like yellow mold - weighted ropes and poles come to mind. Toss the hooked rope onto the pile of rags and drag. That disturbs the pile a bit to reveal things that will give off spores, will probably reveal green slime, and may pull some of those rags apart for better visual inspection without undue risk.
Running in with your bare hands to root through the rags? Generally a bad idea, not a player showing much skill as a prudent/paranoid adventurer.

Characterizing leaving the rags alone vs finding some way to search them while managing the risk associated with doing so as a 50/50 chance is a pretty lame characterization.

Raven Crowking · Jun 1, 2011

Removed

Bullgrit · Jun 1, 2011

An experienced party...

So you're saying that the Tomb of Horrors really isn't a hard meat-grinder? See, this is funny. All the people who say that ToH is great because it is over-the-top tough are wrong? It ain't especially tough. The way you're describing all this says ToH is actually pretty easy peasy. So if someone likes it because he considers it especially tough, he's wrong?

ExploderWizard said:
One mans wonky is anothers brilliant feature.

Yep, I can totally agree with this. But as I said, it's when *everything* is brilliant that things get weird. X is brilliant because it's well designed. Y is brilliant because it's wonky. Z is both well designed and wonky! And we like it that way! Huh?

ExploderWizard said:
Your character can die searching for treasure is both a feature and a bug it just depends on who you ask.

Yep. The frustration for discussion though is when people reverse the "wisdom" depending on the outcome:

We died searching for the treasure.
-- Well, you shouldn't have searched.

We didn't find the treasure.
-- Well, you should have searched.

It's like Monday-morning quarterbacking:

The pass is intercepted.
-- The quarterback shouldn't have tried to pass the ball.

The runner fails to score.
-- The quarterback should have thrown a pass.

Plane Sailing · Jun 1, 2011

Ulrick said:
It can be considered an outlier because it was the first AD&D module

The first AD&D module? are you sure? I could have sword I bought lots of them before I got tomb of horrors - G1-3 and D1-3 for sure?

Raven Crowking · Jun 1, 2011

Removed

Plane Sailing · Jun 1, 2011

jdrakeh said:
Pretty much all of the old tournament modules were meat grinders, not just The Tomb of Horrors (although the Tomb is the most notorious of the lot).

I think this is an important point - modules which were originally tournament modules had a very different purpose and hence design from standard modules designed for campaign adventures.

Tomb of Horrors - example of many, or one of a kind?

Patryn of Elvenshae

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Celebrim

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Raven Crowking

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