D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 core 3 tripper build help optimization

Yeah, they're probably not going to be cost effective till after the OP's game wraps up, realistically... You're basically paying 64,000 gp for +4 AC over the Mage Armor spell.

For 50,000 gp you can have +5 deflection AC (Ring of Protection), which is just plain better; for 5000 gp you can have +1 insight AC (dusty rose iuon stone) which is also plainly better; for 50,000 gp you can have +5 natural armor which is an equally useful AC bonus type but is still cheaper and greater in magnitude; for 50,000 gp you can have a +5 animated mithral buckler that gives +6 AC; heck, even 36,000 gp for Dex +6 gives you +3 AC and a bunch more to boot.

Bracers of Armor are never worth it, sorry for suggesting them. The only possible use is +1 Bracers with Fortification on them, if you can do that.

You might not even need Fortification if you turn into an Undead or Construct form.

Dandu, which build do you think is best? Wizard polymorpher, wereape, or ranger 1/fighter 2/barb 1/wis 1/dragon disciple. Seeing as we are fighting vampires the ranger favored enemy will be a nice slight boost.

And the calculations begin.

Would you all agree that a wereape could use a chain? I mean he has hands after-all?

You could dip Ranger 1 instead of Fighter 1 with the wizard build and still qualify for Eldritch Knight, if you want favored enemy bonus. Both give proficiency with all martial weapons. Heck, you could dip Barb 1 for Rage if you felt comfortable forgoing spellcasting when you did so. Fighter 1 just gets you spiked chain faster. The only issue is if your DM uses the favored class rules, then.

Genesist said:

Would you all agree that a wereape could use a chain? I mean he has hands after-all?

Click to expand...

A were-ape in hybrid form, certainly. Your DM would let you create a new lycanthrope creature, though?

Luckily we do not use favored class rules. He is not a hard-core rules guy. He won't let stupid things through, but he's been very reasonable in my experience. The only thing is that I don't know how items will work. We've always done super low level campaigns, I believe the highest we got was level 2 with him (my group was ADD in high school and couldn't stick with a plot), so I don't know if I will be buying or just receiving. I am fairly far into the calcs of the builds now and am somewhat surprised at what I am getting.

Okay, I have calculated two of the builds so far. Below is the information assuming perfectly average rolls and a base con and str of 16. These assume only very basic armor and weapons, as I am not sure what items will be like, thus there will be lower AC and expected damage than what will likely occur.

They are both calculated in full fighter form, dwarf is raged and enlarged. Human is in hybrid form and enlarged.

Which do you think is better:

Dwarf ranger 1/fighter 2/barb 1/sorc 1/dragon disciple 2:
Average HP: 83
Strength: 24
BAB: 5
Trip bonus: 15
Ranged: 20
Feats: combat reflexes, combat expertise, chain prof, improved trip, improved disarm, track (from ranger)
Damage: 2d4+7 (assuming no up close use of claws/bite)
Speed: 30
Hit bonus: 12
Size: large
AC: 15
Other things: favored enemy undead, level 1 spells, familiar, claw and bite, ability to rage (applied).


Human wereape hybrid afflicted:
Average HP: 48
Strength: 28
BAB: 4
Trip bonus: 21
Ranged: 30
Feats: combat reflexes, combat expertise, chain prof, improved trip, iron will
Damage: 2d4+9 (assuming no up close use of claws/bite)
Speed: 30
Hit bonus: 13
Size: huge
AC: 14
Other things: scent (this is very nice as you can't be easily snuck up on, meaning that tripping is nearly always possible), DR 5/silver (this could help to compensate for lower HP), low-light vision, potential to lose control of form.

What class level is the were-ape, and why is hp so much lower? Scent doesn't matter for sneaking up, Combat Reflexes lets you AoO flatfooted anyway. Also, with lycanthropes, for the animal HD portion of the build, you are REQUIRED to take the animal's feats as your own. If they have more than the animal has the HD to take, any extras become bonus feats. This cuts into your feat selection somewhat.

Under creating a lycanthrope:

"Feats
Add the base animal’s feats to the base creature’s. If this results in a lycanthrope having the same feat twice, the lycanthrope gains no additional benefit unless the feat normally can be taken more once, in which case the duplicated feat works as noted in the feat description. This process may give the lycanthrope more feats than a character of its total Hit Dice would normally be entitled to; if this occurs, any "extra" feats are denoted as bonus feats."

Now, you start off level 1 (or higher) with class levels, so your starting feats aren't hit. An ape has 4 HD and two feats (Alertness and Toughness). So if you went Fighter 1 / Ape 4...which is the only way you can go to start at level 7 (with the +2 LA, you're up to level 7 then), you'd get your level 1 feats, whatever you like, then your only other feats would be Iron Will (lycanthrope bonus), Alertness, and Toughness. One of the latter two becoming a racial bonus feat.

Ape would give you... Large size, +10 str, +4 dex, +4 con (and the +2 wis all 'thropes get), and +5 natural armor after the +2 bonus from the template, not bad.

I would start out as a Dwarf or Orc Fighter 1. That way you have enough feats to get Combat Expertise and Improved Trip starting out. Then next level, go Fighter 2 for Combat Reflexes, and since it's your 6th HD, you also get a feat...spiked chain proficiency. From there, go Barbarian.

Also, is the polymorph idea out? Because I stil think that's a better idea than either of these.

The were ape is a human fighter, so 3 feats at level 1. That's where it gets them from, then I was using it's 4th HD for the 4th feat. So is that incorrect? I did not realize that it gets the ape feats. The polymorph idea is not out. Orc would be dazzles in sun which is a problem, also I went DD for the added strength. ranger is first for skills. The ape's HP is so low because it loses 2 HD and has d8's for most of the rest.

I forgot to apply the lycanthrope natural armor, I will repost with that and the feats added, but does it still gain a feat of my chosing at 4th HD?

Reposted with edits:

Okay, I have calculated two of the builds so far. Below is the information assuming perfectly average rolls and a base con and str of 16. These assume only very basic armor and weapons, as I am not sure what items will be like, thus there will be lower AC and expected damage than what will likely occur.

They are both calculated in full fighter form, dwarf is raged and enlarged. Human is in hybrid form and enlarged.

Which do you think is better:

Dwarf ranger 1/fighter 2/barb 1/sorc 1/dragon disciple 2:
Average HP: 83
Strength: 24
BAB: 5
Trip bonus: 15
Ranged: 20
Feats: combat reflexes, combat expertise, chain prof, improved trip, improved disarm, track (from ranger)
Damage: 2d4+10 (assuming no up close use of claws/bite)
Speed: 30
Hit bonus: 12
Size: large
AC: 15
Other things: favored enemy undead, level 1 spells, familiar, claw and bite, ability to rage (applied).


Human wereape hybrid afflicted:
Average HP: 51
Strength: 28
BAB: 4
Trip bonus: 21
Ranged: 30
Feats: combat reflexes, combat expertise, chain prof, improved trip, iron will, alertness, toughness
Damage: 2d4+13 (assuming no up close use of claws/bite)
Speed: 30
Hit bonus: 13
Size: huge
AC: 16
Other things: scent (this is very nice as you can't be easily snuck up on, meaning that tripping is nearly always possible), DR 5/silver (this could help to compensate for lower HP), low-light vision, potential to lose control of form, 2 wisdom. This build has lower MAD than the first.