My experience from the London D&D Meetup, where lots of new players come in cold, is that 90%+ of the time they turn up with the 4e D&D Players' Handbook released in 2008. It turns out that the Essentials stuff is just a confusing mess, nobody knows to get Heroes of the Fallen Lands as the starting point for 4e play. Whereas the PHB has an obvious title with over 30 years of marketing behind it.
Red Box discontinued......Smart Move?
- Thread starter ForeverSlayer
- Start date
My experience from the London D&D Meetup, where lots of new players come in cold, is that 90%+ of the time they turn up with the 4e D&D Players' Handbook released in 2008. It turns out that the Essentials stuff is just a confusing mess, nobody knows to get Heroes of the Fallen Lands as the starting point for 4e play. Whereas the PHB has an obvious title with over 30 years of marketing behind it.
Yes, many of the new players even at the London D&D Meetup turn up after having played an Encounters session, even though the only place running it in London is an obscure wargames shop!
Imaro
Legend
Or, since they are advanced concepts... you could buy the corebook ($10 PDF) or even get them out of the PFSRD. That's the thing, I don't think there's any reason for them to make specific downloads for rule add-ons since the rules are freely available.
I honestly think that would have added a level of complexity to the BB that wasn't necessary since instead of being a left out rule... it would instead be a wrong rule thta would need to be re-taught the right way later.
You didn't exactly express this clearly the first time around... so no I didn't get that this is what you actually meant.
look at the length of the power section of the 'old' concept 4e classes. Now look at the length of the knight power section. Less length means more room for higher levels in the book.
But the red box was essentials classes, are you missing that? They were just edited poorly and contained numerous errors.
Well the CB is no longer free for any levels, and this was before the red box was released. Has H1 and the quick start rules been updated with the most recent eratta and rules... if not it's kind of a bad example to use for beginners.
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delericho
Legend
Probably not very many. But given the barriers to entry that they'd have to overcome, is this because they're not interested or because there's no good way in?
That's my experience also... but that's because I'm an experienced gamer and so when I encounter new gamers it's generally because I (or another experienced gamer I know) has brought them on board.
Anyway, that model is all well and good, but it means that the game is limited to only growing the network organically - there's effectively no means by which new nodes can just spring up spontaneously. It also really can't help them that they're then reliant on gamers spreading the word - sadly, as a group we're not exactly known for our social skills.
Great. Now, once they've had their Encounters session and they want to move forward on their own, what do they do? The next step should still be "Red Box", but it sucks. And the books are still too much of a hurdle for the played-once customer. Sure, they may now understand which "Heroes of..." book to get, and they really should know which books out of the hundreds they actually need to buy. But that still doesn't overcome the significant expense or (probably more telling), the near-thousand pages of reading.
filthgrinder
First Post
I think it's the lack of a good way in. A specific examples I've seen is with the PAX gaming convention. While it's a video game con, there is a strong table top presence there, which tends to be dominated by D&D. The con is run by the folks over at Penny Arcade, who put out the great series of podcasts.
Those podcasts have done a lot to promote D&D and introduce it to gamers who wouldn't have been interested in playing otherwise. At the every PAX (I've been to three), during the Q&A with Mike and Jerry, they seem to always get the question, "hey, I want to play D&D, how do I start". This is even with WotC running constant "learn to play" sessions. That is where the questioner is usually directed, along with people in the audience raising their hands to volunteer to help them get into it.
The Pathfinder's beginner's box is a good example of where these intro sets should be heading. Of course, the Pathfinder box had the benefit of following the Red Box, so they obviously looked at it, saw where it could be improved, and then went ahead and made those improvements. I'd love to see WotC do the samething. Take what Pazio did and then improve it and tailor it. Getting the game across, in print, to someone coming to it completely cold is a challenge. I don't think it's been perfected yet. The best method for any game so far is D&D Encounters.
Of course, Encounters has its own set of issues, but it's a real good program for getting new people into the game.
One thing I'd like to see in a beginner set is the tone and overall presentation focused and aimed at a new audience. I'd like it to assume the reader is coming from video games, and bring in the hooks that type of player would be familiar with.
delericho
Legend
Which is awesome, and madness, in equal measure.
I don't like being so negative, but it seems the Red Box is mostly useful as an example of how not to do it. Instead, I suspect they took their inspiration from the starter sets of old - that is, from the last time the starter sets were actually successful.
(The topic of the starter set has been something of a hobby horse of mine for a good long time now. Somewhere or other there will be posts by me detailing how I feel it should be done. There may even be posts decrying the Red Box from before it was released. One reason I find the Pathfinder box so intriguing is that it matches what I thought should be done very closely.)
The single biggest weakness of the PF BB is availability. Perhaps the best course of action for WotC would be to just clone it, switch it to 4e mechanics, and put that out there. Get it into all the bigger stores, and the job's done.
I'm not directly familiar with Encounters. However, I have noticed that the board games (Ravenloft, et al) make for a far better intro to the game than does the game itself.
Pour
First Post
Or, come the end of an Encounter season, WotC makes the DM Kits purchasable for new players to then try at home. Given they're tied to new book releases, it could only encourage sales. It also pleases all those clamoring for them in the existing community (especially since many harken to old school modules), really making the Encounter kit a draw for newb and vet alike.
This latest Crystal Caves season is especially interesting with their emphasis on non-combat encounters and, for combat, an altering of their design approach to quicken combat with monsters, terrain and hazards without utilizing stun, daze, and other drag-down mechanics.
I usually don't jump on the bandwagon with the screeching, vocal element on the WotC comments sections, but in this instance I think I'll join their clamoring, "Sell Encounters!"
EnigmaRamus
First Post
I very much love the Red Box, myself.
Sure, there are three or so errors, but none are hard to figure out. And yes, it would be great to have character creation info without having to go through the adventure, but really once you're to that point you're pretty much ready to move beyond the box anyway. But I myself learned a great deal about all of the featured races and classes by going through and creating characters for every combination, and had a wonderful Zen experience taking the time to do so.
As for the PF box, I've checked it out and think it's good and all, but I despise the mat that won't lay flat with its prominent creases and is a slick, reflective surface. I also very much prefer the flat D&D tokens to the way out of proportion stand ups with PF. The D&D ones just do what they're supposed to do... represent. The PF ones sort of attempt to actually look like a creature standing there... well, if a one inch square represents 5 feet then those are some mighty tall people. I also despise Wayne Reynolds art, so there's that.
Anyway, I sure do hope this Red Box stock issue gets resolved soon... I'd like to have a couple more of them for loaners to get others into it.
- It's extremely affordable.
- I love the hero and monster tokens.
- I love the dungeon map.
- I was sucked deeply into the adventure from the first moments on the trade road.
- I've run several sessions with it for my son, his friend, and my wife has now joined in. Everyone has absolutely loved the adventure.
Sure, there are three or so errors, but none are hard to figure out. And yes, it would be great to have character creation info without having to go through the adventure, but really once you're to that point you're pretty much ready to move beyond the box anyway. But I myself learned a great deal about all of the featured races and classes by going through and creating characters for every combination, and had a wonderful Zen experience taking the time to do so.
As for the PF box, I've checked it out and think it's good and all, but I despise the mat that won't lay flat with its prominent creases and is a slick, reflective surface. I also very much prefer the flat D&D tokens to the way out of proportion stand ups with PF. The D&D ones just do what they're supposed to do... represent. The PF ones sort of attempt to actually look like a creature standing there... well, if a one inch square represents 5 feet then those are some mighty tall people. I also despise Wayne Reynolds art, so there's that.
Anyway, I sure do hope this Red Box stock issue gets resolved soon... I'd like to have a couple more of them for loaners to get others into it.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Yeah, I think there are virtues to the 4e Red Box too. It has a price low enough to be an impulse buy or even a stocking-stuffer to give the kids something to do when they get up at 5 AM! It is even cheap enough that younger kids can probably buy a copy or get a parent to pick one up.
It would be cool if they looked at the product though, cleaned up the little rules inconsistencies and maybe spiced it up a bit. I don't know how much they can do within the price they've set, but it would be cool for instance if it allowed another level of play etc.
Herremann the Wise
First Post
I have both the 4e Red Box and the PF Beginner Box and I think you have nailed it in one. The red box feels like they have had a budget and they have stuck to it (while obviously cramming as much into that budget as they possibly could). The PF box feels like the authors have asked "what do we need in this box to teach people how to play and get going straight out of the box?" and then crammed exactly all of that into the box. More expensive but better at introducing complete novices in my opinion. As you say, the red box works perfectly as a stocking filler and just getting the brand "out there" again. I certainly don't think the 4e red box is quite as bad as many have made out although I would honestly have to say (ignoring the different rulesets) that the beginner box is superior in achieving its aim.
Of concern is the fact that distributors are not putting an order in to WotC for this product. Why would they be dragging the chain in this regard?
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
