How Many Classes Do We Really Need?

Well if the Fighter is gonna be a simple but effective basher I want a martial class that's full of complex options for people who like that.

If the wizard is gonna be a Vancian wizard, I want a magic class that isn't Vancian because not every player thinks that magic equals Vance.
 

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BobTheNob

First Post
I'm more apt to get bored from a terrible story, poor character concepts, or cumbersome rules than limited classes.
Yaha. 4e had massive class list, but it was the story and what the players did with their characters that made things interesting.

Im all for minimal classes (the classic 4) with themes/backgrounds giving us the ability to color them in a little.

To me, offs-shoots like the ranger,paladin,bard yada yada come across just as "pre-packaged" builds, so if someone wanted to play one of those, perhaps have a chapter devoted to pre-packaged background/theme/class combination to streamline for casual players. So if you want to play a ranger? Well, here is how you put a ranger together.

Then let the micro-managers ignore that chapter and let them do their own thing (kinda like a "design your own class" approach)
 

Steely_Dan

First Post
I suppose I'd rather ask the question, "Do we need classes at all?"

In D&D, I need them (well want, we don't need D&D, period), I would not like D&D to go Class-less.

I woud like 5th Ed to return to pick Race and Class, with things like Feats/Skills/Themes/Backgrounds/Builds/Kits etc to be optional.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Yaha. 4e had massive class list, but it was the story and what the players did with their characters that made things interesting.

Im all for minimal classes (the classic 4) with themes/backgrounds giving us the ability to color them in a little.

To me, offs-shoots like the ranger,paladin,bard yada yada come across just as "pre-packaged" builds, so if someone wanted to play one of those, perhaps have a chapter devoted to pre-packaged background/theme/class combination to streamline for casual players. So if you want to play a ranger? Well, here is how you put a ranger together.

Then let the micro-managers ignore that chapter and let them do their own thing (kinda like a "design your own class" approach)

I'm against a reductionism in the number of classes that would kill viable character concepts. A Bard is a performer with some arcane power, vast know how and decent martial training, beyond that he/she could be anything (an explorer, a combat medic, an ilussionist, a wandering minstrel, a warrior poet, an actor that moonlights as an asassin, a somewhat mad noble, a juggler, a gypsy, a bar waitress, a drunken brawler, a divinely inspired poet such as Orpheus), I wouldn't even know how to express it as a subclass of rogue-fighter-cleric-wizard and I would lament if I had to use six or seven levels of multiclassing just to get one.

And I'm sure that players that play lots of rangers, barbarians warlocks and druids will say similar things regarding their favorite classes. Now we know what the customization tools will be in next (theme and background) if we have to use those just to get the standard class we want to play "as is", then we have lost the chance to use them to better describe our characters and that way all bards will have the same exact 5 feats and skills with the same exact flavor, as all the barbarians, all the druids, all the sorcerers all warlocks, etc. In contrast every character of the big 4 gets free to be anything they want and still keep their class label and mechanics.

Why can one player have a fighter (noble/slayer) or fighter (scholar/hunter) and meanwhile other being stuck with fighter(savage/berseker) when he would have wanted to play a Barbarian (noble/lurker) and be Conan?

All core classes beyond the big 4 encompass a diverse enough bunch of different character concepts to be defined as simply a particular theme/background combination, it could be argued that Monks and Paladins have an extremely narrow flavor, but I think that any dedicated player could prove otherwise. Just because the stereotypical exemplar of a given class could be easilly described as a multiclass/hybrid of one or more of the big 4 with a given theme/background doesn't mean all members of that class are accurately described by the same token. Don't underestimate and punish those that like classes beyond fighter-rogue-wizard-cleric!.
 
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BobTheNob

First Post
How many bards have you actually played?

3.

My first character EVER in D&D ( at a ripe young age in 1e) was a bard. LOVED using charms and stuff. (Excuse the pun...it "enchanted" me).

Then in Darksun 2e, where the bard was a fairly different. They didnt have arcane abilities in 2e darksun.

Then in 4e, played a valarous.

Please dont make assumptions about people on forums. Its no way to start a post.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
3.

My first character EVER in D&D ( at a ripe young age in 1e) was a bard. LOVED using charms and stuff. (Excuse the pun...it "enchanted" me).

Then in Darksun 2e, where the bard was a fairly different. They didnt have arcane abilities in 2e darksun.

Then in 4e, played a valarous.

Please dont make assumptions about people on forums. Its no way to start a post.
Sorry, I shouldn't have done that. Will go and excise it out.
 

BobTheNob

First Post
Sorry, I shouldn't have done that. Will go and excise it out.

Graciously said.

To acknowledge your original point it is essential that every player is able to compose the character according to the image what they want it to be, so indeed the example of Conan being the Barbarian (noble/lurker) is one way of doing it.

The thing I want to see is multiple themes (which I think I read they were allowing more at later levels...can anyone confirm) to cover this off. I hold to the concept that with multiple themes the "idea" of the class can be preserved.

My alternate preference for the Conan model (trying to encapsulate your perceived thematic model) therefore is

Class : Fighter, Background : Barbarian, Themes : Noble, Lurker, Bezerker

So the rage mechanics specific to the Barbarian are moved into Bezerker, with Barbarian being more the cultural and interactive aspects. With Noble and Lurker adding there extra little bit of flavor.

One other example I particularly like is to have Paladin as a theme. Is a paladin a fighter or a cleric (that age old debate...)? Well, that ends up coming down to which class it becomes combined with.

I do stress this would be my preferred way of handling it. My understanding at this stage is that the "none core" classes (Paladin, Barb, Ranger e.t.c.) are being included, so I am at this stage just blowing steam, but its nice to think.
 

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