Write this game for adults

am181d said:

But Gygax wasn't writing the AD&D DMG for your parents. He was writing it for you. I don't want Wizards fine-tuning D&D so that it's more enjoyable for you-now than it would have been for you-then.

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I disagree - in part. Gygax was half-writing the DMG for himself.

What I get when I read Gygax is a tone of "Hey, guys! Here's something I find really cool! And I'm pretty sure you'd like it too!" And it's got all the challenge to understand of an enthusiast who doesn't think to slow down to come out and say what, to them, is obvious (and who you can't interrupt to ask what they mean because it's a book).

Now in terms of clarity that might be worse. But that level of enthusiasm is inevitably emotionally engaging to any but the most jaded listeners IME. And if I'm not engaged I'm not going to bother to go further - and emotional engagement will take things much further .

The 4e PHB on the other hand probably was written by committee. It is in my opinion a very good system but I need to peel away the committee-ese and management speak to get at the layer a team of very talented designers have put together. For all the language is dumbed down, the barrier to engagement is much much higher.

Kynn said:

I call shenanigans.

Harry Potter is immensely popular, including with 8th graders, and it's written at 5th to 7th grade level.

You are simply wrong.

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This is a great example. When I was a kid we did not have such ''lowly grade level'' books to read. What did I read as a kid? Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit. Edgar Rice Burrows. Issac Asimov. And all the books we would now call 'classics' like the works of Mark Twain, 1984 or Uncle Tom's Cabin. I had read most of them before I was even a teen. Sure, I read Bunnica(the vampire bunny that only eats vegetables) when I was like six. But well before the time I was ten, I was reading 'adult' fiction.

My generation did not have Harry Potter, Twilight or any of the other current popular fiction that ''talks down to kids on their level''. I was reading Gulliver's Travels as a kid, a book that I'll bet that few under the age of twenty have read(unless 'forced' to in school).

I loved the feeling of 'rising above kid status' you got when you read 'adult' books. Even as a kid, I could talk to and impress an adult, by talking about an 'adult' novel. I loved the feeling of 'growing into the adult world' through books. But kids today, just want to 'wallow in the kid mud'. All the kiddie stuff put out today is just so much fluff....at best.

And I think D&D should be the same...have that old 'lifting up your status' feeling. Maybe WotC could put out TWO D&D rule books? Like a 'basic set' for the kiddies and an advanced set for the adults? Radical Idea that has never been done before, right?

Can anyone provide some real examples of "kiddie" writing in 4e? I'm still not seeing it.

herrozerro said:

Can anyone provide some real examples of "kiddie" writing in 4e? I'm still not seeing it.

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Check out the advice on player types. Some of it is ok, but there are passages that can make you cringe. If no one has one by then, I'll look up a good example tonight.

Ranganathan said:

And here I thought you'd left this logical fallacy behind, oh well. Clearly you're fixated on age and making sure gaming appears more adult.

I'm sorry, but are you now arguing that people only bought D&D because there was nothing else to do? You've lost any hint of credibility.

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I tried twice to get my point across and clearly failed, since your response bears no logical relation to the point. Oh well, better luck next time. And no, I didn't do either of the things you said I did.

I enjoy reading Cracked. Part of Cracked being a fun read is "the voice". Cracked have many writers but they all strive to write with that voice. One of those writers said somewhere that a Cracked writer need to get that voice "internalized". It seems to me that writing for Cracked is part acting.
Cracked articles are made up of popular science and culture with references to other works left and right with stupid/shocking/funny metaphors sprinkled ontop. It's a great recipe.
I'd like to see a D&D-voice. Ms Mazzanoble is on to something, for example, but it can be further developed.

Kynn said:

I call shenanigans.

Harry Potter is immensely popular, including with 8th graders, and it's written at 5th to 7th grade level.

You are simply wrong.

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Harry Potter is an interesting exception that proves the rule. What could be the appeal? Let's see, the language is rather simple, but the subject matter is classic fairy tale level: Hansel and Gretel get eaten, Big Bad Wolves get thrown into pots, that kind of thing. In other words, it doesn't talk down to children. Billy Boat Gruff is often rendered so a 6 year old can read it, but it doesn't back away from the subject matter, either. So there are exceptions, of course.

Now, you want to go pull an 8th grade literature textbook and have this discussion? I bet you a bucket of free bits that it is 75% drivel.

Crazy Jerome said:

Check out the advice on player types. Some of it is ok, but there are passages that can make you cringe. If no one has one by then, I'll look up a good example tonight.

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Just looking through it I personally don't see anything really cringe worthy. In fact this section really helped me with my own players.

I mean some of the advice is a little "duh" but I dont see what the big deal is.

bloodtide said:

My generation did not have Harry Potter, Twilight or any of the other current popular fiction that ''talks down to kids on their level''.

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What generation do you belong to?

I'm 43, and my generation had its share of young adult (YA) literature:

A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle
The High King by Lloyd Alexander
From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler by E. L. Konigsburg
Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH by Robert C. O'Brien
The Grey King by Susan Cooper
Bridge to Terabithia by Katherine Paterson

(The above is a selection of Newbery Award winners from the 60s and 70s.)

Also, the language in The Hobbit marks it as a children's book, and while pulp fiction like John Carter wasn't expressly meant for a young audience, it's not sophisticated, either, though effective.

Kynn said:

Why would you ever do such a thing as that? That's not what such a measurement is even for.

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Why wouldn't I? Obviously large, obscure words and difficult, complex sentence structures that require a postgraduate degree to decipher are a sign of intellect, consequently rendering the expressed opinions and ideas of greater validity. Now with your handy dandy text analyzation engine I need not even waste my precious brain power on such trivial task as deciding who I should listen to.


Or I might have been taking an oh so subtle jab at some of the opinions given voice in this thread, I'm not sure yet.



By the way I now have the highest score in this thread. I'm lying.