Elephant in the room: rogue and fighter dailies.

Hautamaki

First Post
A halfling or rogue getting lucky twice a day I have no problem with. Luck is an intangible enough thing that it doesn't bother me if it doesn't make hard physical sense. But I don't see why a fighter should be able to have a surge, which is a physical action, exactly two times per day.

In my houserules, a character can take a feat which allows them to push themselves past their normal limits and add their willpower (cha or wis or will save or whatever is appropriate) to their strength for a single action; but this is not limited to a daily choice or whatever, rather doing so is an immediate tradeoff: the character suffers d6 damage do to overstraining himself when doing this. This makes it an interesting choice and associates the mechanics with the gameworld as well.
 

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Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
It's possible that Fighter's Surge and Knack tie into the stamina mechanic that Bruce hinted at in the last sentence of the Paladin Design Goals.

Or, that might be wishful thinking.

I won't get all worked up over a handful of per day abilities, but I'd much prefer them tied into unified stamina mechanic.
 

variant

Adventurer
It's possible that Fighter's Surge and Knack tie into the stamina mechanic that Bruce hinted at in the last sentence of the Paladin Design Goals.

Or, that might be wishful thinking.

I won't get all worked up over a handful of per day abilities, but I'd much prefer them tied into unified stamina mechanic.

The 2/day could just be a substitute for the lack of a stamina mechanic that hasn't been added yet.
 

Tallifer

Hero
Nonmagical daily abilities are just wrong. They're bad game design on every level.

Your opinion is strongly worded indeed, but your subsequent arguments lack almost any factual basis to support your opinion:

They don't model anything,

They model the simple narrative device that heroes only do a particular amazing and heroic feat once or twice in a novel, saga or movie. If Jackie Chan, Steven Segal or Jean Claude van Damme did the same stunning move against every opponent in every situation, most people would complain about how boring it all is. They also model that ordinary humans can only muster so much adrenalin and energy in a day; that fortuitous situations and opportunities to pull off a certain trick only arise now and then.

they don't make sense in the game world,

Many game worlds are modeled on swords and sorcery tales in which a hero like Tarzan or John Carter can occasionally do amazing things without any magical aid. Tolkien was not as interested in the description of melee, but I like to think that Aragorn and Beorn could do likewise and not just swing and hit repeatedly.

they're horribly unbalancing,

This makes no sense considering all the extra and amazing powers which wizards and clerics have. Sleep and Charm have utterly dominated some of our encounters in Pathfinder.

and they're not tactically engaging.

Now I will grant you this. I very much prefer the daily exploits of Fighters and Rogues in the Fourth Edition. I hope future rules modules will reinstate proper daily exploits.
 



TarionzCousin

Second Most Angelic Devil Ever

Ahnehnois

First Post
Oh, but the rogue did. It was called defensive roll(ex), which you could use once per day.
A suboptimal choice and one only available at high levels (as compared to this 5e rogue ability available at 2nd level). And some people still complained about it.

Your case appears to be that the people who disliked 4e martial dailies are hypocritical because they are essentially the same as mechanics that existed in prior editions, which is absurd. The actual percentage of martial-type characters who had such an ability, no matter how hard one looks for them, is probably below 5%. And those who had them, had them by choice, since it was entirely possible to play a character without them. Certainly, few if any people were clamoring for more of this stuff, which is why, when the playtest presents us with low-level basic characters with poorly conceived mechanics that the designers should know better than to write, it is a big deal.

Tallifer said:
They model the simple narrative device that heroes only do a particular amazing and heroic feat once or twice in a novel, saga or movie. If Jackie Chan, Steven Segal or Jean Claude van Damme did the same stunning move against every opponent in every situation, most people would complain about how boring it all is. They also model that ordinary humans can only muster so much adrenalin and energy in a day; that fortuitous situations and opportunities to pull off a certain trick only arise now and then.
Fatigue mechanics are great. Daily powers, which place a starkly unreasonable limit on one ability while leaving all the character's other capabilities unaffected, are not representing adrenaline, energy, fatigue, or anything else in those action movies. They are representing the coyote chasing the roadrunner off a ledge, and realizing that he is out of movement-related powers a little too late.

I am all for abilities that meaningfully capture this idea, such as a legitimate fatigue mechanic, or action points, which represent that superhuman effort but have the virtue of not being time-limited resources and being optional for people who don't like them.

This makes no sense considering all the extra and amazing powers which wizards and clerics have. Sleep and Charm have utterly dominated some of our encounters in Pathfinder.
There are specific spells that can be unbalancing. Lots of them. This does not mean that "spells" are inherently unbalancing, or that the frequency of use is a balancing tool.

The issue with these kinds of spells is twofold. First, non-spellcasters should have similarly powerful abilities (i.e. disabling or killing someone with one roll), but the health system is too forgiving in this regard. Second, the spells have no real limits other than the daily restriction. Both are readily fixable, though I haven't exactly seen 5e nail it in this regard.

Many game worlds are modeled on swords and sorcery tales in which a hero like Tarzan or John Carter can occasionally do amazing things without any magical aid. Tolkien was not as interested in the description of melee, but I like to think that Aragorn and Beorn could do likewise and not just swing and hit repeatedly.
Yes, many epic heroes have had quasi-superpowers. You know what they didn't have? Occasions where they tried to use them, but couldn't because they had already done something similar that day. Those characters are so superhuman precisely because they never stop coming. In other words, I'm not just talking about the daily aspect being unrealistic, I'm talking about it being anti-dramatic and anti-fun.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
3e Barbarians aren't martial? I'll grant you monks - they're most definitely supernatural. If you discard the barbarian as martial there's exactly 2 martial classes in the core rules, one of which (the fighter) was almost always a stepping stone on the way to prestige classdom. Not a very wide pool.
 

Mallus

Legend
Managing a meaningless metagame resouce that your character can't understand he has ("Well, I took my extra actions earlier, so I sure can't do it now!") is not tactics.
So the real tactics used by the real person who is really playing the game shouldn't be considered tactics?

But the imaginary tactics used by the imaginary person in the imaginary space the game occurs should be (and without regard for the tactical consideration imposed by the game engine)?

I think you might want rethink this position.

edit #1 - after a long, twilight struggle, I've come to appreciate x/day abilities for PCs and creatures. Spells, fits of rage, Bo9S super moves, whatever. They're easy to use, workable, and fun. As for making their use congruent with the in-game fiction, well, let's put it this way; the rules can't do everything for you and little imagination goes a long way.

edit #2 - if you're inclined to gripe about non-magical Dailies, think back to lock-picking in AD&D. A thief could attempt to pick an unlimited number of locks per day. Until they failed. In which case the thief couldn't try the same lock again until they went up in level, which presumably meant a lot longer than a day. No giving it one more shot. No coming back with fresh eyes or a better set of picks in the morning. So if you blew your fist attempt, lock-picking was a Level-y.

What did this model? Nothing. Why was it a rule? Balance. Why does balance sometimes have a higher priority than simulation? Because this is a game.
 
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