Why have dissociated mechanics returned?

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
So reaching back to my examples from the Playtest, the Stout Halfling's "Fearless" trait is a dissociated mechanic: After the Halfling character by some means aquired the "frightened" condition, the player chooses to use this character's Fearless trait to make it disappear. At his turn, the Halfling uses his action to activate the Fearless trait. But this mechanic is not represented by an action in the game world as the Halfling is not aware of his shaking of the fear. It would be absurd to think about this action as something the Halfling knows about as this would create all sorts of awkward questions such as: Why was he afraid in the first place?

This might not be a good example. I've always seen overcoming a fear affect not as "I'm not afraid" but "I can act despite my fear". So I can easily see the Halfling taking a few seconds to talk himself out of fleeing or cowering. It's much, though not exactly like counting to ten to recover from anger.

Which isn't to say that the mechanic described is the best. Only that I don't think it's dissociated.
 

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Ahnehnois

First Post
At some point we should accept that some mechanics are just FUN. And others are... not. Spell points, despite being brought up every single edition, are not fun mechanics (you pick your most powerful spell. And spam it. FOREVER). Yes, it's how magic works in 95% of all books, with the wizard getting more and more tired after each spell and eventually 'running out of juice.' But it's not a fun game mechanic.
Spell points, FWIW are a great mechanic. Spell slots are less fun because of the sheer complexity of trying to manage dozens of them, spell points are simpler and fast. IME (extensive experience, I might add), the spamming thing does not happen because of good spell design and good encounter design. Typically, a spellcaster will pick spells to target an opponent's weakness: a particular saving throw, touch AC, etc., and thata weakness will vary and will not always be immediately obvious. They also try to conserve spell points, and typically are in no hurry to cast whatever their best spell is. There's plenty of tactical choice there. D&D works best with a diverse set of mechanics, but I'll take a spell point caster over a spell slot caster any day.
 

Sir Robilar

First Post
Hi Li Shenron, great post, thank you!

Concerning the Halflings Fearless trait again and your reaction here:

I think this ability is very "gamist" in the sense that it's totally built on game mechanics with no consideration on what it actually represents. What the designers want here, is that you lose your turn's action. But I'm with you thinking that it should say why or how it happens. Maybe something as simple as "you are focusing on your inner strength to shrug off the fear effect" is enough for me.

In my opinion a different way of describing this action (and others where I see this problem) would not suffice. If they went this way they would do it how it was done in 4E. In my experience, we had no problem with these descriptions in the beginning. However, as there was no clear connection between the action and the in-world effect, players soon tended to ignore the flavour text. We didn't think about an action as "this action where you focus your inner strength to shake of your fear" but rather "this action that lets you drop the frightened condition".

Now when people say this is nit-picky or this is a stupid discussion about realism in an unrealistic fantasy game it makes me a little sad as I feel I wasn't able to bring my point across...

I believe that this is one direction of game design that may not look so bad in the beginning, even not after some time has passed and you've been happily playing with the rules. But at some point, this separation of mechanics and the character's actions will lead to a general drift away from immersion with the events of the game. And at that point an RPG loses what makes it so special.

I'm absolutely not trying to bash 4E as I respect it for it's many strengths. But these kinds of dissociated mechanics were exactly what turned my group away from it. They didn't disturb me or anyone at my gaming table when we started playing the system. But after half a year of playing weekly we realized that we weren't as immersed in the game as with some other roleplaying games. When the discussions about dissociated mechanics came up, we realized that this was our main problem with the edition and decided to drop it.

This is why I was very hopeful when the designers stated their goal not to go down this road again. At one of their Gencon panels they directly adressed this issue and stated that they wanted each rule to directly represent an action in the game world. Now I realize my original post may sound like I am overreacting, but I fear that if we ignore this issue, 5E will be an edition that, again, may seem like the holy grail in the beginning, but will let groups that are sensitive to these mechanics encounter a burnout in the long run. And that would run against their main goal of uniting all players of D&D.
 

Sir Robilar

First Post
This might not be a good example. I've always seen overcoming a fear affect not as "I'm not afraid" but "I can act despite my fear". So I can easily see the Halfling taking a few seconds to talk himself out of fleeing or cowering. It's much, though not exactly like counting to ten to recover from anger.

Which isn't to say that the mechanic described is the best. Only that I don't think it's dissociated.

I still believe it is dissociated. The problem I see here is that "a character realizing that he can act despite his fear" should not be represented as an action in a six second turn sequence alongside actions like casting a spell, attacking someone with a sword or drinking a potion. It brings up difficult questions such as: Why couldn't the character just realize that he can act despite of his fear when he was first affected by the fear effect? Does it really take him six seconds to come to this realization? Shouldn't it be a free action? Why can't the character take a double move while he has this realization? And so on.

Also I believe that retroactively fixing these mechanics is not the best way to go. To pull a quote from the Alexandrian's blog post:

" The flip side of the “explaining it all away” misconception is the “it’s easy to fix” fallacy. Instead of providing an improvised description that explains what the mechanic did after the fact, we instead rewrite the ability to provide an explanation and, thus, re-associate the dissociated mechanic. "
 

Obryn

Hero
Since D&D has traditionally avoided dissociative mechanics, it's understandable that pre-4e people advocate for a return to that philosophy. It's because we grew up with that philosophy.
Funny thing. I likewise grew up on that philosophy. After playing many different games over the years, I have since decided that metagame mechanics don't make for a worse game, and, when done well, in fact make games better.

Look - I don't need, want, or expect a Next that's as metagame as some parts of 4e. I already have 4e; I am no more interested in 4e Part II than I am in 3e Part III or 1e Part XIV. And I completely understand that not everybody cares for the 4e style of play, even though I don't share their opinion. So, I'm more than happy to budge on it - to move towards a middle in the interest of compromise.

So, it's more than a little irksome when that same sense of compromise is nowhere in evidence from the "non-metagame" folks and all I see is yet more people posting yet more links to a pseudo-philosophical manifesto written by a dude on the internet, applying new labels to mechanics that have existed almost as long as RPGs, and excluding many excellent modern RPGs from the RPG club.

-O
 

pemerton

Legend
In an RPG, where suspension of disbelief and visualization of a fantasy world is a reason to bother to play at all, they're plain old bad game design
Let's just call them "metagame mechanics" because that's really all they are. It's a new sticker stuck on an old concept.

And frankly, I disagree that a game like FATE (which is more or less completely made out of metagame mechanics) is bad design.
Besides FATE, we could add to the list of "badly designed" RPGs such games as Maelstrom Storytelling (what would Ron Edwards know when he identifies it as one of the earliest explicitly narrativist RPGs!), HeroWars/Quest and The Dying Earth (what would Robin Laws know about designing a good RPG!).

Oh, and AD&D as explained by Gary Gygax, with its metagame hit points ("luck and divine favour") and saving throws ("maybe the successful save vs dragon breath corresponds to noticing a cleft in the rock and taking last-second cover behind it"). But we all know that Gygax was no good at RPG design either, don't we!
 

pemerton

Legend
The gnoll is „Savage“, but only when it can see two other creatures with the Savage trait within 30 feet. Why? Why is the gnoll incapable of attacking with all his savagery, when he fights alone and is up against a helpless victim? Is he somehow restrained in his rage when he is alone?
Yes. Gnolls are stereotypical pack animals - that is, savage in packs and cowards alone.

Continuing with the Hobgoblin, it has the „Steadfast“ trait, meaning it cannot be frightened while an ally is within 30 feet. Why not? This may make sense when the Hobgoblins encounter the Player Characters, but does it make sense when two Hobgoblins encounter Cthulhu?
I could pose the same question in relation to a dwarf: if it travels through time to the modern world, and chows down some plutonium, is it immune to the toxic effect? I don't think the D&Dnext rules are intended to model these sorts of extreme cases. (Anymore than, for example, it models combat between two ants, or two housecats.)

In addition, one could always rule that Cthulhu does not impose the "frightened" condition, but some more mindblasting effect to which hobgoblins are not immune.

The same with other traits and actions like „Commander“, „Protector“ and the minotaurs „Armor Pearcing 4“ where the minotaur’s foe takes damage even though he wasn’t hit from the attack (something which I personally can’t stand).
Commander is pretty clear: the hobgoblin captain gives commands, which help the other hobgoblins in their fighting.

Armour Piercing is also pretty clear. Normally, a hit vs AC 10 would hit the armour but not penetrate it; while a hit vs the target's actual AC would not only hit the armour but penetrate it. (Roger Musson discussed this in an early number of White Dwarf, in an article called How to Lose Hit Points and Survive, but I doubt that he was the first to notice it.) The minotaur is so tough that all its attacks penetrate armour to some extent: hence the descriptor "armour piercing", and the minimum damage on any hit vs AC 10.

If you wanted to make action resolution more complex, you could make the minotaur's minimum target number AC 10 + DEX component of the target's AC. Given that comparatively few PCs with a high DEX component to AC are going to be trading blows with a minotaur, the designers may have though that the extra complexity was not worth the effort.

the Stout Halfing’s „Fearless“, where he takes an action to end the frightened condition. What action does the Halfling take and how does it look like?

<snip>

I’d prefer an approach where the Halfling can always take a second Save against fear effects or something like that, as it wouldn’t force the player to play out how his Halfling shakes off his fear, when it’s really hard to explain how that would look like. And even harder to explain why he couldn’t have done it earlier.
The reason the halfling couldn't have done it earlier is presumably because (as others have posted upthread) it takes time and effort. The halfing is mustering his/her resolve. What does it look like? Pick your favourite scene from LotR - maybe Merry deciding to stab the Nazgul, or Pippin deciding to pledge fealty to Denethor.

The problem I see here is that "a character realizing that he can act despite his fear" should not be represented as an action in a six second turn sequence

<snip>

It brings up difficult questions such as: Why couldn't the character just realize that he can act despite of his fear when he was first affected by the fear effect? Does it really take him six seconds to come to this realization?
The simpe answer, surely, is Yes, it really does. Maybe it's an idiosyncracy of halfling psychological processes.

What I dislike considering associated or dissociated mechanics is the fact that you can cast some spells as Rituals and others not. This seems to be tacked on from the designer's point of view but it is hard to explain from the POV of a character that lives in the D&D world.
Surely here, of all places, the "it's magic" explanation will do! Some spells admit of being reduced to ritual formulae. Others don't. Why? Well, once you have a general theory of how magic works, you can add on the epicycles to explain how some admit of ritualisation and others don't.

I’m also having a hard time to accept that some spells can be cast in rounds where the caster also does some other action. If I was a caster I would ask myself why I can't cast my other spells and also do something else during the casting.
Because it's part of the spell effect. Maybe the spell requires speaking very few words, or only a very simple hand gesture, or maybe it has a haste effect built into it.

Again, "it's magic" seems like it might be enough here.

a player could always confront his/her DM with questions such as „So you’re telling me I can cast Battle Psalm, a 2nd Level enchanment, and attack in the same round, but I can’t do the same with Radiant Lance, a Minor evocation?“
Mightn't part of the answer that what makes Radiant Lance minor rather than 2nd level is precisely that more time is spent casting it: you can do it repeatedly, provided you say the full rites and make all the right gesticulations every time.
 

triqui

Adventurer
There is no single game that do not have dissociated rules. You can argue about how *much* is *too much*, but all of them have.

To point one: initiative. The fact a character acts, then freezes for 6 seconds while other guys move and do things he can´t answer to, is dissociative.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
Halfling’s Nimbleness. The Halfling can move through spaces of creatures that are larger than it.

I spent a while trying to respond to this, modelling the halfling ability as a new use of improved feint, while giving halflings a bonus to the check based on cultural knowledge, very much like the dwarven bonus to AC against giants.

That works for me, using 3.5E, but, then I ran into a different problem: Why halflings? I mean, halflings are known to be nimble, but I've never imagined them having a particular better sort of nimbleness that suggests the given ability.

Edit: A second problem with this particular example (and many of the examples given) is that it is exception based. The ability is specifically "Halfling" nimbleness, and not something more generic, e.g., "nimble sidestep" which halflings have in particular. That is to say, one is fighting against both that the ability is disassociative and that is exception based. That's too many issues all at once!

Let's look at "Nimble Sidestep" as a general ability that could be had given the right combination of innate skill and training. What would the right combination be?

Thx,

TomB
 
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triqui

Adventurer
Sir Robilar said:
The gnoll is „Savage“, but only when it can see two other creatures with the Savage trait within 30 feet. Why? Why is the gnoll incapable of attacking with all his savagery, when he fights alone and is up against a helpless victim? Is he somehow restrained in his rage when he is alone?
If you have seen how hyenas act, this describe exactly that beheaivor. Hyenas are terrible fierce, cruel, savage and bloodthirsty when in pack. They attack lions, they kill big buffalos, and eat animals alive (literally). But when faced individually, they are coward. Even a dog can scare an individual hyena.

Gnolls are based on hyenas. So this rule sounds quite simulationist, actually.
 

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