Yeah, but it doesn't matter. This is a 3.5e game first.
So the only Pathfinder spell descriptions we'll be using are the ones that are only in Pathfinder. Any spell that's in both of them will be using the 3.5e rules.
That's my take on what Jemal's said so far.
Correct.
That doesn't help; if you fail to use it as a save-or-lose when you know it could be, you are intentionally holding back or being stupid IC.
I wholeheartedly disagree with you. You're basically saying "Ever Using anything other than your most lethal alternative is stupid".. and I personally think that's ridiculous.
PaO for example - PaO is one of my favourite spells, as a self-styled 'transmuter extraordinaire', I give it to every character capable of casting it... and I've NEVER (To my recollection, I have been playing for like 15 years..) used it (directly) against a boss. (And I've played a LOT of high level mages in several combat-heavy and long running campaigns)
As a long-time Power gamer, and much-accused Twink I cant think of anybody who'd ever call how I play 'holding back'. Especially not b/c I don't use PaO as a 'save or' spell. And I can only think of a few people who would ever refer to me as stupid (And that's cuz they're bigger stupid-heads!
)
As Shayuri said, it's utility is far too useful, and it's usage on living creatures is part of that utility.. Not just as a boss killer, but using it on allies, lesser foes, or even random wildlife. (flock of pigeons flying over town + chained PaO = Horde of Rhinos falling into town. MUAHAHA).
Or the ever useful "polymorph tons of rock into a carrot. Polymorph second pile of rock into bunny. give carrot to bunny and FRAG OUT! Interesting way to destroy small cities.
Disintegrate CAN deal a lot of damage, but as shayuri said, it requires a touch attack, SR, AND Saving throw (which reduces the damage to the equivalent of a magic missile), and even if you get it to work at full strength, it's still not a guaranteed kill.
38d6 at this CL is avg 133 hp.. even max (without Metamagic) it's only 228. I can guarantee you that's not going to one shot any boss you guys fight. Add to that the fact that there are lots of spells with more Damage potential at this level.. and most of them don't allow saves.
other examples: Telekinesis can also be used as a save or loose spell, but that's not its primary function, nor what most mages use it for.
you could Shapechange into a creature with a save-or ability, and some Summonable monsters fall into the same category, so does that mean these spells should be classified as 'Save Or'?
Just because you're not using the most broken/powerful trick available doesn't mean you're holding back/being stupid. Trust me, several of the people I game with know way more broken/powerful tricks than I do. We like coming up with them, but actually using them is.. meh. It's like cheating at a video game. Sure the concept of invincibility and golden bullets is entertaining, but it gets boring after a very short while.
Side Note - The reason I don't use Save or spells Personally when I'm PLAYING isn't b/c of MAD, or b/c I'm holding back.. it's because I'm NOT holding back. I HATE the feeling of using a big nasty spell, and... nothing happens. The guy saved, better luck next time. I avoid 'death spells' b/c I don't like all-or-nothing, it has absolutely nothing to do with holding back.
I saw a 1-on-1 game once where someone played a death mage. It was pretty much Roll saves for the badguy till he fails, then figure out how much damage he deals to the death mage in that many rounds. *yawn* next fight?
I understand that, properly designed you can get a character with a 'death spell' that's extremely hard to resist, but for that point, I could also make a character who deals such ridiculous damage nothing can survive.. both I find boring.. It's got nothing to do with which is stronger, just which is more entertaining.
Nobody's ever 'honestly' accused my mages of being less-than effective.
*This is just when I'm PLAYING, my reasons as a DM are different. Encounters seem much more entertaining and challenging without the 'instakill' possibility.
What you could do is ask Jemal for a nerfed version of the spell, that wouldn't affect creatures, just as he let me take a nerfed version of Noxious Blast.
To the second half,
The difference with noxious blast is that it's MADE to be used as an attack, it doesn't have any other purpose.. and really, it's not much of a nerf, we both thought it was 1 round and still were willing to use it, showing how powerful it still is even like that. as a full minute, it's pretty OP (Especially when you account for the fact that a warlock can literally cast it all day long)
A Note : I think some people are going a bit overboard on the MAD-lookout. It was meant as a way of saying "Don't be giant bags of feminine hygiene product", but now things seem to be getting looked at as a "Do I want the DM having access to this".
I use MAD to avoid 'cast spell end encounter'
Weird, Finger of Death, Imprisonment, Dominate, Hideous Laughter, Irresistible dance, flesh to stone, etc.
Things that are, flat out, primary purpose: "Use: if opponent isn't immune & fails save, you win."
