D&D 5E Legends and Lore October 22nd

@pemerton

I'll have to attempt to locate that thread. For what its worth, I don't percieve what you outlined as railroading (specifically given the explicit consultation of the players...that would appear to be utterly at odds with the idea of railroading). You are not circumventing "the will of the players" nor "the fall of the dice" in the social contract sense (which is the important part here). The situation is overt, explicit, above board...outside of the realm of DM force.

I've often spoke to my disdain for unbounded, non-hard-coded Divination effects that circumvent the established resolution mechanics. Most often I speak to my annoyance with them due to their propensity to make null/circumvent investigatory and exploration challenges. However, the other part of this is related to what we're speaking of now. There is a DM Force and Rail-Roady aspect to them that I also cannot stand. There is a tension between the wittiness/logic of the DM and the players being on the same page in their mental framework/inferences. This can lead to a real or percieved arbitrariness/willful opacity to the exchange (DM's adjudication to player's inference). Further, there can be a real or percieved outright, willful DM blockage of a PC's invested resource scheme in order to sustain the sanctity of the challenge. I abhor that potential for passive aggression/percieved malignance or distrust embedded in any resolution mechanics (especially within a PC's invested resource scheme).
 

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Ratskinner

Adventurer
This is why I think that the key word in the Forge's "Story Now" is not "Story" but "Now". Every RPG experience will generate a story - it's all about how that generation relates to the purposes and the procedures of play.

I agree. Its given me pretty high standards for what I call a "Narrative game" anymore. Of course, the problem (if you're into this way of playing) with D&D is that it brings a great herd of mechanical sacred cows forward that make very hard to play that way.

I think the felt need for preparation can be part of it, yes.

I think there's also a connection here to worldbuilding. One thing that I have found can help with more improvisational GMing is to have the worldbuilding in pretty broad-brush terms (the Points of Light presented in Worlds and Monsters, the 4e PHB and MM, and the DMG is fine for me), and then do a lot of spontaneous creation of detail as play unfolds.

This is the sort of thing that in Burning Wheel is mechanically formalised via Circles mechanics (players get to create NPCs) and Wise mechanics (players get to create backstory) but, especially if the group are comfortable together, you don't need those sorts of mechanics to have just-in-time world creation (whether done mostly by the GM, as in my case, with a few key bits of input from the players, or whether done with the players taking a bigger role, as in BW or the discussion in the 4e DMG2).

FATE (at least the latest version) has all that, too. It is certainly a different experience prepping to run a game like that. I think there is some entanglement here between player/DM control, and social-sphere game mechanics. Some of 3e's difficulties w.r.t. summoning and animal companions probably illustrate it quite nicely.

Conversely, a GM who has put a lot of effort into worldbuilding from the get go may well have bits of the world that s/he wants to show off in play. If the world also contains a built in thematic or moral orientation that the players have to buy into if they are to engage it at all, then I think railroading can easily ensue.

Definitely true. I've seen this the most often when someone wants to run "the evil campaign." Most people seem to not be that good at being the bad guy. Just about every such campaign I've ever seen quickly stalls soon after the PCs are done admiring their imaginary silver-and-black (possibly with purple accents) equipment. I can't tell you how many times I've witnessed desperate DMs conjuring up large criminal organizations just to issue orders to the PCs.*

As you know, I'm a little bit down on 2nd ed AD&D for its railroading tendencies, and that opinion is definitely shaped by some bad experiences, with GMs wanting to dominate the unfolding plot in the interests of telling their version of the incipient story.

2e definitely knew where it wanted to go, but it didn't know how to get there. To be fair, I don't think anybody did back in 1988.

These are very different playstyles, and they take different approaches towards preparation, but I don't think preparation is at the heart of it. You can run improv/just-in-time D&D using AD&D mechanics (I've done it, especially in Oriental Adventures), though it doesn't support this approach as well as 4e does.

Sure you can. I can (or could back in the day). The problem is that its pretty hard, and/or requires a very "on-top-of-it" DM. Certainly those were rare, if the constant complaining about bad DMs is any indication. Personally, I did it when I was in college and had plenty of mental time/effort to put into such things. I could rattle off all sorts of numbers regarding ACs and obscures rules and ruling. Nowadays, I'm quite confident that such mental overhead isn't worth my effort.

4e isn't unique in the way it tries to handle this issue, but it is unique among editions of D&D. The transparency of the system - power mechanics, item mechanics, earning and spending action points, DC and damage ranges, etc - all combine to give the players a confidence that the narrative cauality won't hose them or their PCs. And you don't even have to spell all this out - I think that the confidence in the mechanics to give ever fair points of input, and therefore the requisite degree of control over their PC's fate, emerges out of play. Partly because the players encounter it in their own resource management. Partly because the GM has such clear mechanical support for saying "yes" or "yes, but". And partly because the resolution mechanics tend to ensure that no single choice or decision by player, or single adjudication by the GM as to who the monster attacks or where it moves, bring everything crashing down. So the play iteslf is transparent and forgiving in this particular way.

AD&D's lack of this sort of transparency is what I think makes it less reliable as a system for this sort of play, but I'd be interested to hear how you (or others) worked around its deficiencies.

Two ways:
First and foremost, system mastery (although I hesitate to use the term). I didn't just read those rulebooks, I studied them. Once you had a deep enough knowledge of the various bits and pieces of the system, a sort of gestalt understanding could arise, and then you could use that to crank out things quickly. This was a lot "fuzzier" than 4e's, because of the way the system core worked. If you were to try and recreate it explicitly, as 4e does, there would be a great many conditional rules to it.

Secondly, what I called friendly DMing. There's a lot of advice in the 2e books for DMs. A good portion of it is pretty good. It is a rather fine line to walk, however. Personally, I was quite happy to let things roll. My goals, the things I wanted to show off, were not contrary to how the players wanted to go about things. I wasn't trying to pull off a "serious" story, and other DMs often teased me about my world (magic-heavy, over-the-top), but I figured if we were all having fun....who cared? The funny thing is, much like how a sit-com can evolve into a drama, my campaigns ended up achieving a very high reputation amongst my college crowd.

Now, I'm not sure exactly why that second part worked as well as it did, but I have a pretty good suspicion. I've tried lots of different games and game styles, and I've noticed a few things, but one of them is....Drama is very hard to do, even in games that develop that history as part of character creation. You need a very specific type of player who's willing to invest in the tension(s) and characters quickly. I haven't met many people like that.

Its much more effective to start with a simpler, sillier, game and work up to something that "matters." People invest much more readily and deeply into a character whose story they have experienced "firsthand." Characters need to start with plenty of blank spaces that get filled in later. This is yet another factor in my desire for fast-playing rules. The faster we can build up history, the faster folks will be genuinely invested in their characters.

I think D&Dnext could achieve something similar to 4e, in this respect at least, if bounded accuracy works out as I hope it will, but at the moment I am a bit uncertain - and the "rulings, not rules" rhetoric fuels my uncertainty, because to me it focuses too much on loosening things just where they need to be tight if players are to confidently take risks (eg DC setting, damage values, etc) rather than getting the GM's adjudication where is can be put to best use (framing challenges, determining narrative consequences, elaborating complications, etc).

enh...I'm not sure I like players "confidently taking risks", it sounds a little too much like "astutely calculating odds" to me. How risky is it, if you're confident?;) I too have high hopes for bounded accuracy. I don't think we've seen enough of the rest to know.

*I personally find it more interesting to try and play a toady or lieutenant in such games, but rarely find a worthy master. In the one game where I played a dominant evil character from the start, I horrified the rest of the players to a degree that the campaign ended. :blush: (Just as I had finally succeeded in attracting the attention of an order of Paladins and creating the hero who should've gone on to defeat me, more's the pity.)
 

pemerton

Legend
Sure you can. I can (or could back in the day). The problem is that its pretty hard, and/or requires a very "on-top-of-it" DM. Certainly those were rare, if the constant complaining about bad DMs is any indication. Personally, I did it when I was in college and had plenty of mental time/effort to put into such things. I could rattle off all sorts of numbers regarding ACs and obscures rules and ruling. Nowadays, I'm quite confident that such mental overhead isn't worth my effort.

<snip>

I didn't just read those rulebooks, I studied them. Once you had a deep enough knowledge of the various bits and pieces of the system, a sort of gestalt understanding could arise, and then you could use that to crank out things quickly.

<snip>

Secondly, what I called friendly DMing.
This reminds me a lot of my approach to GMing Rolemaster, which was my university and post-university game for nearly 20 years.

I couldn't go back to it, though - your mental overhead comment is spot on in that respect, and also there are too many mechanical bits that get in the way.

I agree. Its given me pretty high standards for what I call a "Narrative game" anymore.

<snip>

The funny thing is, much like how a sit-com can evolve into a drama, my campaigns ended up achieving a very high reputation amongst my college crowd.

<snip>

Drama is very hard to do, even in games that develop that history as part of character creation. You need a very specific type of player who's willing to invest in the tension(s) and characters quickly. I haven't met many people like that.

Its much more effective to start with a simpler, sillier, game and work up to something that "matters." People invest much more readily and deeply into a character whose story they have experienced "firsthand." Characters need to start with plenty of blank spaces that get filled in later. This is yet another factor in my desire for fast-playing rules. The faster we can build up history, the faster folks will be genuinely invested in their characters.
I suspect that you would find my game too slow and insufficiently narrativist for your taste.

I definitely come to RPGing from the traditional side of things, and use the indie ideas/techniques to strengthen a game that is rooted in traditional fantasy RPGing. I would think of my game as quite traditional except for the pushback I've experienced on these boards when describing my approach to GMing (with respect to metagame mechanics, GM authority over plot, "player entitlement", etc).

When my game achieves "drama", I think it would often be better characterised as melodrama or soap opera. When compared to novels or film, I find RPGing to be a pretty poor medium for conveying subtleties of character or situation, because there is so little deliberate creative control over the way those things emerge in the course of play - multiple creative participants, no scope for rewriting/editing, etc.

The short session that I GMed on the weekend began with the PCs barely alive after their fight with the hydra and its elemental bodyguards, and in two separate groups on the battlefield, separated by steaming water, hot semi-solid rock and lava. As the players debated how to proceed, I described the duergar theurge dropping down on a rope from the cleft in the cavern roof.

The players, and some of the PCs, already knew she was there - she had earlier dropped down a potion to help the invoker PC, and the invoker had signalled her that "the debt would be repayed". After a brief exchange of words between the duergar and a couple of the PCs, she walked past them and picked up the fragment of the Sceptre of Law (= Rod of Seven Parts) that had been cut from the neck of the hydra. The duergar explained that this was her due. The PCs disagreed - they would repay the debt, but a fragment of the Sceptre went beyond any dues that they owed, and she could not have it.

This disagreement ended up being resolved peacefully (mechanically, it was a complexity 2 skill challenge). The fragment of the Sceptre wanted to merge with the other 3 pieces wielded by the invoker PC, and it was clear that the duergar was having trouble controlling it - she was sweating (despite her Resist Fire 10) and paying less and less heed to what the PCs were saying. The invoker defused the situation by suggesting that the two parts of the rod be allowed to fuse, and then it be allowed to choose who should wield it. Each through their piece to the ground - she her one fragment, he his three conjoined fragments - and they fused together. The invoker then picked up the rod without trouble. He then invited her to take her turn. She struggled with it, and then relinquished. The PCs then set off with her to her clan stronghold, to rest and to learn what they can do to repay their debt in some suitable fashion.

As well as that dramatic centrepiece of the session, there was plenty of colour. Some of it was basically comedic - for example, the chaos drow trying to extract a guarantee of safe conduct from the ultra-lawful, devil-worshipping duergar; and the religious and historical discussions between the tiefling paladin and the duergar theurge, with the PC warpriest of Moradin occasionally chiming in from the sidelines. Some other colour was "pipe-laying", to borrow a phrase I learned from Robin Laws Hamlet's hit points - the PCs got to see the duergar orc and ogre slaves, and also got a demonstration of the duergar's Expansion ability in the context of a demonstration of how the duergar maintain control over their ogre servitors. This also created an opportunity for various PCs to evince their own hostility to orcs and ogres (especially the invoker, who is near-genocidal towards the "evil" humanoids, after they sacked and destroyed his home city). The whole episode also allowed the players to consolidate their conception of the place of duergar, and devils, in the cosmological conflict that is the centrepiece of the game. (And the tiefling in particular, in the initial interaction with the duergar theurge, emphasised multiple times that in earlier dealings with the duergar the PCs had always found them honourable and true to their word.)

But the negotiation with the duergar in the hydra cavern was also interspersed with a whole lot of procedural play - working out how the PCs make their way across the punishing terrain, for exampe, and how many hit points this cost them - which the system requires, given that a combat with the duergar was a clear possibility, but which I think you would regard as a significant impediment to resolving the central dramatic conflict.

This is where the "heaviness" of the D&D mechanics, even in 4e, puts a bit of a brake on the "now" in "Story Now".

I'm not sure I like players "confidently taking risks", it sounds a little too much like "astutely calculating odds" to me. How risky is it, if you're confident?
The confidence I had in mind wasn't "confience that I'll win", but rather "confidence that I won't be hosed if I lose". My TPK example upthread is the sort of thing I have in mind - because 4e makes it (mechanically) easy to resolve 0 hp as unconsciousness rather than death, it creates scope for PCs to lose combat without necessarily dying. And because of the way it sets up the cosmology of the Shadowfell, it permits PCs to die without death necessarily being permanent - there are a lot of cosmological players (the Raven Queen, but not just her) who might send a spirit back for some reason, which allows PC death to be treated as a complication rather than a "game over" event.

When players know that losing a conflict doesn't have to mean losing the game, I think they become more willing to take risks with their PCs, and to push things a bit harder, rather than turtling up. Turtling is certainly one enemy of free-flowing, dramatic play, in my experience at least.
 

<snip>

When players know that losing a conflict doesn't have to mean losing the game, I think they become more willing to take risks with their PCs, and to push things a bit harder, rather than turtling up. Turtling is certainly one enemy of free-flowing, dramatic play, in my experience at least.

Absolutely on this. In my view, the largest group of impediments to a functional "fiction/genre/thematic interest first" game are:

1 - De-incentivizing PC behavior on fiction/genre/thematic grounds (reactively in tactical play and pro-actively in strategic play and in roleplay). There is an intrinsic PC unwillingness to take risks embedded in standard D&D play as failure in task resolution means "you're a buffoon" or "non-proficient (specifically when you're trying to express an archetype that is proficient, well practiced, or masterful) and failure in combat means you're dead. A system whereby the cost (risk of TPK/narrative ending) benefit (narrative enrichment on thematic, genre-relevant grounds) analysis is overwhelmed by the punitive nature of the cost end of the spectrum narrows choices to a singularity; what yields success. Accordingly, like sub-optimal strategic, tactical, and roleplay choices (on thematic/genre-relevant grounds), sub-optimal PC build choices yielding buffoonery or "dead status" renders thematic choices utterly subordinate to the aforementioned buffoonery avoidance/mere survival choices.

2 - Lack of mechanical incentive/impetus to behave (reactively and proactively) and to build PCs on fiction/genre/thematic grounds.

3 - Lack of thematic build choices to flesh out archetype.


Again, 4th edition (unlike all other D&D editions) proves its mettle here:

- Tight encounter budgeting allowing DMs absolute control over what challenges he puts before the PCs (thereby there being virtually no risk of a TPK-level challenge manifesting by accident or fuzzy math). As such, the "cost" (in this case, the potential for TPK lurking around every "encounter corner"...sometimes by way of DM miscalculation) is bounded considerably yielding the opportunity for the "benefit" (thematic, genre-relevant choices) to be brought to bear much more consistently (especially with p42). This is the inhibition of the de-incentive of 1. Beyond that, from the DM side of the screen, it allows me to trust the budget will map the encounter to my anticipated output, thus allowing me to focus on enriching it tactically, strategically and thematically.

- Richly thematic power choices and Class constructs allowing for strong archetype creation both tactically and as expressed in the fiction. P42, Themes and Backgrounds further advance this considerably. This is the inverse of 3 - across the board for all classes.

- Minor Quest Rewards for completion of theme/background relevant to the chosen archetype. This is even better supported if cooperatively meta-gamed together with the player (or mined during discussions...sort of like investigating for potential Christmas present prospects ;)) before the game or as the game progresses. This is the incentive of 2.

- Milestones/APs rewarded for properly rendered thematic play or the willingness to take risks/lose (sometimes intentionally lose) for the sake of thematic play or dynamic, genre-relevant narrative. This is the incentive of 2.

- Fail Forward Conflict Resolution of Skill Challenges. A singular failed Skill Check need not lead to buffoonery and an ultimate failure of the Skill Challenge leads to a new challenge, new adversity...not a dead end (literally or figuratively). This manifests as the inhibition of the de-incentive of 1. It can also be the incentive of 2 (Awarding APs for extraordinarily thematic risk-taking in Skill Challenges or a Failure leading to a bonus or an opportunity for 2 successes out of 1 roll)
 

pemerton

Legend
I've often spoke to my disdain for unbounded, non-hard-coded Divination effects that circumvent the established resolution mechanics.

<snip>

There is a DM Force and Rail-Roady aspect to them that I also cannot stand. There is a tension between the wittiness/logic of the DM and the players being on the same page in their mental framework/inferences. This can lead to a real or percieved arbitrariness/willful opacity to the exchange (DM's adjudication to player's inference). Further, there can be a real or percieved outright, willful DM blockage of a PC's invested resource scheme in order to sustain the sanctity of the challenge.
For just these reasons I have had plenty of trouble with the Rolemaster Dream spell (an open ended divination effect available to many classes, and comparable in D&D terms to Legend Lore or Divination). There is arbitrariness. There is opacity. There is the need for the GM to adjudicate between blockage and breakig the challenge. All-in-all a source of irritation.
 
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Ratskinner

Adventurer
I suspect that you would find my game too slow and insufficiently narrativist for your taste.

I think I'd like playing in it, from the sound of it. Honestly, I'm still looking for a "perfect" system for me. (Whether I can find/convince a group to play it with me is another problem.:heh:) I keep running into games (usually Indie, anymore) that look great, but somehow don't work out as well in practice. I have high hopes for the Cortex+ System from the Marvel rpg. I'm hoping for a solid fantasy version to bubble up.

...plus rpgs usually don't have dramatic background music cued up...:D

I definitely come to RPGing from the traditional side of things, and use the indie ideas/techniques to strengthen a game that is rooted in traditional fantasy RPGing. I would think of my game as quite traditional except for the pushback I've experienced on these boards when describing my approach to GMing (with respect to metagame mechanics, GM authority over plot, "player entitlement", etc).

When my game achieves "drama", I think it would often be better characterised as melodrama or soap opera. When compared to novels or film, I find RPGing to be a pretty poor medium for conveying subtleties of character or situation, because there is so little deliberate creative control over the way those things emerge in the course of play - multiple creative participants, no scope for rewriting/editing, etc.

I think that's fine. "Firefly" level drama is usually a lot more fun than "Lord of the Rings" level drama. I agree that there's probably an upper limit for rpgs. Characters in rpgs just don't have the forum for soliloquizing as the primary character in a novel does (when they do, players usually describe it third person).

Basically, I'm just looking for some level of investment. D&D (along with most rpgs) doesn't do that well from the start, at least for most players. However, most games seem to develop it over time. I think this is a big part of what my group means about story developing "organically". They, and I believe a lot of players, have a lot of trouble "getting into" goals or motives that they don't see originate, even if they select them at character creation.

<snip>

This is where the "heaviness" of the D&D mechanics, even in 4e, puts a bit of a brake on the "now" in "Story Now".

I was going to mention it above, but here sounds better. I think what you're talking about here is just the "nature of the beast" for D&D.

<snippage>

When players know that losing a conflict doesn't have to mean losing the game, I think they become more willing to take risks with their PCs, and to push things a bit harder, rather than turtling up. Turtling is certainly one enemy of free-flowing, dramatic play, in my experience at least.

Gotcha. I haven't seen that as much of an impediment. I find the players/PCs arguing over the best/safest way to proceed is often a good prelude to later drama and interaction. They always find a way to move forward. That may be just an individual taste thing, though. I still saw plenty of it in my 4e games, but that may be that my players weren't familiar enough to drop old habits.
 

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