The AC on a Budget challenge

Greenfield · Dec 17, 2013

Regarding Balor: A single CR 20 monster is one way to build an EL 20 encounter. Certainly not the only way. More of a "Boss monster" final encounter for the adventure.

Lower level creatures, en mass, are a threat. Particularly if you aren't AC 26 at 1st level.

As for, "Why multiclass": Do you know another way for a Ranger to take Druid levels? I don't.

I'll be honest, Cj. An awful lot of your long post made little or no sense. But I think I understand the confusion.

This thread was started on the "Legacy Games" forum. It got moved to the Optimizer's forum.

Can an optimizer build a 1st level character of godlike power? Probably. But, as I've mentioned her, most in my game group aren't trying to be gods, just have some fun RPing at a game table.

My questions wasn't "Can you make an unhittable creature?". It was specifically, "AC on a budget". And while I said there were no wrong answers, that's only true if you're answering the question that was asked.

Want a first level character who absolutely can't be hit on the battlefield? It's easy. Don't go to a battlefield. 100% miss chance.

But not what was being asked. Get the picture?

Cyclone_Joker · Dec 17, 2013

delericho said:
Okay, I'll bite. Given that that's a spell with "Target: You", the character can only cast it on himself. Since he's 1st level, he can only adopt the form of 1HD creatures, which rules out the Troglodyte (which is the big hitter in the SRD as far as natural armour bonus is concerned).

So, what's the rest of the build? What form does he adopt? In short, where does this AC25 come from?

So now we're pretending that CL-boosting isn't trivially easy?

Greenfield said:
Regarding Balor: A single CR 20 monster is one way to build an EL 20 encounter. Certainly not the only way. More of a "Boss monster" final encounter for the adventure.

And if it effectively can't miss you, you're kinda going to have to beg your casters to save you, which seems like it doesn't make you a terribly effective combatant.

Lower level creatures, en mass, are a threat. Particularly if you aren't AC 26 at 1st level.

Unless we're talking Tucker's Kobolds, no they really aren't a threat, especially past level 1.
[quite]As for, "Why multiclass": Do you know another way for a Ranger to take Druid levels? I don't.[/quote]I do. It's called "RP." The ranger is already a divine caster with nature powers. He doesn't need to multiclass at all to be a druid, because he doesn't need to take druid levels to be a druid.

Metagame constructs, dude.

I'll be honest, Cj. An awful lot of your long post made little or no sense. But I think I understand the confusion.

What part didn't you understand?

Can an optimizer build a 1st level character of godlike power? Probably. But, as I've mentioned her, most in my game group aren't trying to be gods, just have some fun RPing at a game table.

No. Gods are hilariously overpowered in 3.5. Tippy made the only way short of Pun-Pun to take them out that I'm aware of, and that requires epic.

My questions wasn't "Can you make an unhittable creature?". It was specifically, "AC on a budget". And while I said there were no wrong answers, that's only true if you're answering the question that was asked.

Except there is a wrong answer when the AC provided is utterly meaningless. CR 10 creatures have a fair chance of hitting your friend. At level 18, that's meaningless.

Want a first level character who absolutely can't be hit on the battlefield? It's easy. Don't go to a battlefield. 100% miss chance.

But not what was being asked. Get the picture?

It's a good thing that wasn't what I was saying, then.

Dannyalcatraz · Dec 17, 2013

So now we're pretending that CL-boosting isn't trivially easy?

No, you're being asked direct and clear questions. You have made implications about the ability of Alter Self (and other elements of the game) that make it easy to get an AC over a certain point. People just want you to make your implications explicit: How do you do what you claim? What is the build?

It's there in black & white at the end of delericho's response that you quoted.

Greenfield · Dec 17, 2013

So your answer was right, but the question was wrong? Sorry, but that's what it sounds like you're saying.

You did the same thing with the Ranger/Druid question: How does a Ranger take Druid levels without multiclassing? Your answer: Don't take Druid levels, just pretend you did.

Now, on the subject of AC25 at 1st level: Instead of making thin allusions, why not post the build?

1st level character with standard starting budget, stats from a 32 point build, using the point-buy method in the DMG. (I know better than to specify Ranger, which was what the thread was about, because that's the wrong question.

)

delericho · Dec 17, 2013

Cyclone_Joker said:
So now we're pretending that CL-boosting isn't trivially easy?

No, I'm not pretending anything. I have no side in this debate. But your alter self one-liner caught my interest, so I'm asking. Nothing more, nothing less.

So: What's the rest of the build? What form does he adopt? In short, where does this AC 25 come from?

Cyclone_Joker · Dec 17, 2013

Dannyalcatraz said:
No, you're being asked direct and clear questions. You have made implications about the ability of Alter Self (and other elements of the game) that make it easy to get an AC over a certain point. People just want you to make your implications explicit: How do you do what you claim? What is the build?

How many way do you want me to list this off?

There's spellgifted, Arcane Thesis, and reserves of strength. There, you can turn into any creature of the appropriate types with 7HD or less. You're welcome.

If you don't like AT, you can cut it and be stuck at 5HD, which means Reserves of Strength isn't as fun. Primitive Spellcaster can give you another HD, if you really want it. I can add more, if you want, but I think I've made my point.

It's there in black & white at the end of delericho's response that you quoted.

Yes, and it was an utterly silly question.

Greenfield said:
So your answer was right, but the question was wrong? Sorry, but that's what it sounds like you're saying.

Funny. It sounds like you're saying you're not bothering to read my posts.

You did the same thing with the Ranger/Druid question: How does a Ranger take Druid levels without multiclassing? Your answer: Don't take Druid levels, just pretend you did.

Here's my question to you: Do your druid NPCs introduce themselves as Xth-level druids? Do they have any followers or allies who aren't full casters?

Classes are metagame constructs.

Now, on the subject of AC25 at 1st level: Instead of making thin allusions, why not post the build?

Because there are enough of them that bothering was pointless. But it's done anyway.

1st level character with standard starting budget, stats from a 32 point build, using the point-buy method in the DMG. (I know better than to specify Ranger, which was what the thread was about, because that's the wrong question. )

Eh, why not?

Tren are a 4HD humanoid from serpent kingdoms. It has dex 12, but it has 8 natural armor. Add in mage armor and shield. 27 right there.

Now I'd like to point out that I intentionally went with humanoids. The planar handbook, however, gave us a 0LA outsider with no stat adjustments. Wanna see a fun 5HD outsider? Here. So we're looking at AC34 with a few very simple, well-known tricks. Monstrous Humanoids aren't too hard to find, and there's actually a playable 0LA magical beast race, but I don't think I need to explain where that road leads. Hell, Elan or DW Kobold would be hilarious here.

So, in conclusion, I, with minimal effort, made a level 1 character with AC comparable to your level 18 friend. That should tell you something about his AC.

Dannyalcatraz · Dec 17, 2013

Yes, and it was an utterly silly question.

I don't think so- it seemed an honest question from someone who didn't know the answer.

(I know I certainly didn't.)

Perhaps you should take such inquiries at face value.

Cyclone_Joker · Dec 17, 2013

Dannyalcatraz said:
I don't think so- it seemed an honest question from someone who didn't know the answer.

(I know I certainly didn't.)

Perhaps you should take such inquiries at face value.

I apologize, then. It seemed reasonable to me to expect basic knowledge of CL-boosters in an optimization forum, and thus I assumed you were attempting to distract from the point.

Greenfield · Dec 17, 2013

CJ, you seem to be writing in a fast-forward mode, as if everyone already knew what you were thinking. You leave huge gaps and kind of expect that everyone else need merely be reminded of what fills them in.

So yes, I am reading your posts. What I'm not reading is your mind.

To answer the others: How to build AC 25 at 1st level:

Don't start at 1st level, start at 10th. (i.e. you asked the wrong question.)

or...

Start out at 10th level, with appropriate gear, then get level drained down to 1st level. (i.e. you asked the wrong question, but get at least a bad faith answer).

or...

Buy a ten foot ladder with 5 cp of your starting money. Sell it for 2 sp as two ten foot poles (half market value). Rinse/repeat until you've accumulated enough wealth to buy +5 mithral plate, a +5 mithral shield and a +5 Ring of Protection. (i.e. you never said they were limited to a 1st level budget.)

See? Simple. At least it is if you're willing to ignore rules, sense, or the question asked. Do that and it's as easy as pie.

On a more serious note: Build your character with a good Dex (16 or higher), and the Precocious Apprentice build, with the appropriate caster level boosts. Now cast Mage Armor and Shield. You're at AC 21 right there.

Alter Self into the form of your choice with at least a +4 Natural Armor and you're at AC 25+. For two minutes, until your Shield goes down. And your Alter Self goes down. and your Mage Armor goes down.

AC 25, just walking around, sans buffs? Much harder.

So, since the original question had to do with a Ranger (not a Precocious Apprentice), and a walking around AC, not AC with short term buffs or high miss-chance or questions about how to be a Ranger changing to Druid without changing to Druid, let's ignore CJ's off topic nonsense. The questions are right, and his off point non-answers are, well, off point.

Cyclone_Joker · Dec 17, 2013

Greenfield said:
CJ, you seem to be writing in a fast-forward mode, as if everyone already knew what you were thinking.You leave huge gaps and kind of expect that everyone else need merely be reminded of what fills them in.

This is an optimization board. I expect basic knowledge of the rules. Is this an unreasonable assumption?

To answer the others: How to build AC 25 at 1st level:
<Snip>
See? Simple. At least it is if you're willing to ignore rules, sense, or the question asked. Do that and it's as easy as pie.

Oh, so now following the rules is cheating? Oh, hey, good to know.

These forums need a rolleyes smiley.

On a more serious note: Build your character with a good Dex (16 or higher), and the Precocious Apprentice build, with the appropriate caster level boosts. Now cast Mage Armor and Shield. You're at AC 21 right there.

Alter Self into the form of your choice with at least a +4 Natural Armor and you're at AC 25+. For two minutes, until your Shield goes down. And your Alter Self goes down. and your Mage Armor goes down.

You weren't paying attention. Why don't you go double-check my CL figures?

AC 25, just walking around, sans buffs? Much harder.

Actually, it's much simpler. It just requires more broken abilities, and I decided to keep it simple.

So, since the original question had to do with a Ranger (not a Precocious Apprentice), and a walking around AC, not AC with short term buffs or high miss-chance or questions about how to be a Ranger changing to Druid without changing to Druid, let's ignore CJ's off topic nonsense. The questions are right, and his off point non-answers are, well, off point.

In other words, you know you can't rebut but can't bring yourself to admit it? Okay. I'll do you the favor and accept your concession.

Have fun with your bad arithmetic.