The AC on a Budget challenge

[Greenfield]

Response 1: The thread got moved to this board by one of the Mods. It wasn't started here.

Response 2: No, ignoring the question is "cheating" in a discussion.

Response 3: I don't need to check your CL figures, since I never referenced or addressed them. They were off-point white noise, and I treated them as such.

Response 4: not worth responding to.

Response 5: Why would I need to rebut your off point white noise? It's off point. As in, it's not what we were talking about. You decided to hijack a thread about AC by declaring that AC didn't matter, after which you began to post oblique references to things that have nothing to do with, well, anything.

It's like we're playing basketball, and you're trying to score a touchdown. You can claim all the touchdowns you like, and we can't "rebut" them, but that's mainly because there's no reason to try.

 

[delericho]

I apologize, then. It seemed reasonable to me to expect basic knowledge of CL-boosters in an optimization forum, and thus I assumed you were attempting to distract from the point.

Alas, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the minutae of every 3e book. And this isn't just an optimisation forum.

How many way do you want me to list this off?

Just one complete build. With the emphasis on 'complete'.

There's spellgifted, Arcane Thesis, and reserves of strength. There, you can turn into any creature of the appropriate types with 7HD or less. You're welcome.

Arcane Thesis is, indeed, disallowed, as it requires 9 ranks in Knowledge(arcana), which a 1st level character doesn't have.

Spellgifted and Reserves of Strength are both fine, although rather crappy choices - the Spellgifted trait means you now have a caster level of 0 with all non-Transmutation spells, and although RoS can get you past this, it's at a cost of being stunned every time you cast a spell (or, if you're immune to stun, taking several dice of damage - especially painful with your 4+Con bonus hit points).

Plus, you've now got three feats as a 1st level character (Precocious Apprentice, Reserves of Strength, plus Iron Will). That means you need at least one Flaw. So, yeah, you are now deep into optimisation territory, what with PA being even more optional* than the rest of "Complete Arcane", the contents of "Unearthed Arcana" also being considered especially optional*, and the Flaws section being called out as being even more problematic.

* And yes, I'm aware of the strangeness of describing something as "especially optional".

Tren are a 4HD humanoid from serpent kingdoms. It has dex 12, but it has 8 natural armor. Add in mage armor and shield. 27 right there.

But, crucially, I must note that this does answer the final important bit of my question. So, thank you.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Just one complete build. With the emphasis on 'complete'.

I gave you several options.

Arcane Thesis is, indeed, disallowed, as it requires 9 ranks in Knowledge(arcana), which a 1st level character doesn't have.

Well, technically it can but that requires a hell of a lot of work. I concede the point, it seems my knowledge of the minutiae of 3e/3.5 is not as encyclopedic as I'd have hoped.

Spellgifted and Reserves of Strength are both fine, although rather crappy choices - the Spellgifted trait means you now have a caster level of 0 with all non-Transmutation spells, and although RoS can get you past this, it's at a cost of being stunned every time you cast a spell (or, if you're immune to stun, taking several dice of damage - especially painful with your 4+Con bonus hit points).

...For many spells, that's not too relevant. And, anyways, spellgifted is a wonderful choice. CL boosts in a school you're focusing on is great, and the amount of spells generally means the cost is easily ignored. Further, only the outsider actually needs spellgifted to reach the referenced monster's HD, and it's not like there aren't other ludicrous, low-HD outsiders.

Plus, you've now got three feats as a 1st level character (Precocious Apprentice, Reserves of Strength, plus Iron Will). That means you need at least one Flaw. So, yeah, you are now deep into optimisation territory, what with PA being even more optional* than the rest of "Complete Arcane", the contents of "Unearthed Arcana" also being considered especially optional*, and the Flaws section being called out as being even more problematic.

...Not really, no. It's in a printed book. Further, it's not an optional rule or an optional rule system. It doesn't replace anything.

Plus, a human doesn't need to use flaws, FCII solved that problem years ago.

But, crucially, I must note that this does answer the final important bit of my question. So, thank you.

You're welcome.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by Cyclone_Joker
I apologize, then. It seemed reasonable to me to expect basic knowledge of CL-boosters in an optimization forum, and thus I assumed you were attempting to distract from the point.

Around here, at least, its always possible that some newbie is asking the question- and just because someone has a lot of posts doesn't make them a system master (*raises hand*). Simply, some optimization tricks will always be a revelation to someone.

Oh yeah- apology accepted!

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Around here, at least, its always possible that some newbie is asking the question

Yes, but, given that y'all have a bunch of posts, that seemed unlikely.

- and just because someone has a lot of posts doesn't make them a system master (*raises hand*). Simply, some optimization tricks will always be a revelation to someone.

Eh. Fair enough.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Thousands of posts means thousands of posts, not intimate systems mastery of any description. A lot of the posts on these boards focus more on the non-mechanic essence of the game and such instead of laying the mechanics bare. I can't even say assume only the absolute basics because what that means to you, CJ, and what that means to others are going to be very different things. So instead I will say never assume people know of a certain rules interaction or that a given one will even be possible for any given poster's situation. And since you can never assume people will know what you're talking about, it is imperative that a source be given so that people can at least look it up for themselves even if the source is just a link to http://dndtools.eu/ or something. Don't assume that what you call "minimal effort" would not take someone else quite a while to find. It's like the P vs NP problem: While a solution to a problem could certainly exist and be easily verified, it might not be easily calculated or found. Cracking a password is a far cry from knowing it, and the more intricate a password (or esoteric a resource) the less likely it is to be cracked or well known.

Note that all the rules are optional, even stuff in the PHB. "Optional rules" in this case is not referring to stuff like alternate class features. Never assume all materials are allowed because the vast majority of the time they will not be on these boards. There have been some games where the setting was modified medieval Europe and people were limited to playing only human characters and couldn't do any high level casters since that's just the world the DM made. That kind of scenario is precisely what I meant when I said that people could very well be playing a different game than you. Simply put, different allowed or banned sources and circumstances will change the game, and the entire point of this optimization board is to build towards a certain goal based on the resources available.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Thousands of posts means thousands of posts, not intimate systems mastery of any description.

Thousands of posts... on a board about RPGs.

A lot of the posts on these boards focus more on the non-mechanic essence of the game and such instead of laying the mechanics bare. I can't even say assume only the absolute basics because what that means to you, CJ, and what that means to others are going to be very different things. So instead I will say never assume people know of a certain rules interaction or that a given one will even be possible for any given poster's situation. And since you can never assume people will know what you're talking about, it is imperative that a source be given so that people can at least look it up for themselves even if the source is just a link to http://dndtools.eu/ or something. Don't assume that what you call "minimal effort" would not take someone else quite a while to find.

I called them all out by name. How can using Google take a while to find it?

Note that all the rules are optional, even stuff in the PHB. "Optional rules" in this case is not referring to stuff like alternate class features.

...And if you completely disregard the system, you're not really playing the game. It's the difference between a RPG and a drama group.

Never assume all materials are allowed because the vast majority of the time they will not be on these boards.

Always assume all sources unless explicitly told otherwise. To do anything else is not only absurd, but will lead to incomplete information.

There have been some games where the setting was modified medieval Europe and people were limited to playing only human characters and couldn't do any high level casters since that's just the world the DM made.

And I had rice for dinner.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were exchanging irrelevant trivia.

That kind of scenario is precisely what I meant when I said that people could very well be playing a different game than you. Simply put, different allowed or banned sources and circumstances will change the game, and the entire point of this optimization board is to build towards a certain goal based on the resources available.

Yes. And one shouldn't assume resources are unavailable unless there's reason to. Assume that they aren't playing "the same game as I am," you know, the game we're talking about right now, without any evidence is idiotic.

 

[delericho]

Thousands of posts... on a board about RPGs.

Yes. Because "RPGs" is a much wider subject than just "D&D", which in turn is much wider than "D&D 3.X edition". And even that is wider than just "D&D 3.5e mechanical optimisation".

Never assume all materials are allowed because the vast majority of the time they will not be on these boards.

Always assume all sources unless explicitly told otherwise.

It really depends what's under discussion, but in this case, I agree with CJ - the thread was specifically about optimising a specific aspect of a character under a budget. Since the OP didn't specify "Core Rules only", or "don't use sources X, Y, or Z", it does seem that the right assumption here is "anything goes".

 

[Umbran]

And I had rice for dinner.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were exchanging irrelevant trivia..

That's more than enough snark. Now please stop. Keep your tone respectful, or stop posting in the thread.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Yes. Because "RPGs" is a much wider subject than just "D&D", which in turn is much wider than "D&D 3.X edition". And even that is wider than just "D&D 3.5e mechanical optimisation".

Yes, but given that this thread that they're posting in is about D&D 3.5, it is not unreasonable to assume they'd be posting about things they'd know about.