The AC on a Budget challenge
Greenfield
Adventurer
I was asked for a resolution to our low AC Ranger/Druid, so here it is.
First, this thread was based on him only in the loosest of senses. He didn't have 100k to spend, for openers. The player wasn't writing down the cash portion of any of our treasure picks, so he almost nothing in terms of cash.
We backtracked to the last sizable loot split to determine what he had taken from it, and after seeing that it was pretty much nothing, the group voted that he had the cash value. We also had the loot split we'd just done. Add in what he had actually written down and we had our budget: 73,260.
Since he already had Bracers +6 and a 20 Wisdom, the Monk's belt made a lot of sense. He had some masterworked "Leather scale" armor, but it didn't do anything for him other than look good, so he dumped that. Cheapest +5 AC boost in the book, which took him from a 25 to a 30.
Next he bought Gloves of dexterity +4, which helped his AC, his Initiative, and his archery.
He already had an Amulet of Natural Armor +3, so the Periapt was a non-starter. It would give the same AC bonus per GP spent as the Natural Armor amulet, if he were starting from scratch. As it was, he'd get half value selling the amulet he had, while paying full price for the Periapt, so it made no sense economically.
There was some debate about an Animated Shield, since the Monk's Belt doesn't work when you're wearing armor or shield, but it was ruled that it wouldn't conflict when "in use", since it wouldn't be held or wielded in combat. I'm sure there's been a lot of debate over that combination, and I'm sure there will be more in the future.
So his AC is now up to 35, having spent a shade under 40k on it. He could add to his Ring of Protection or his Amulet. He could also add to the plus on the shield. So he has room to grow with this build, which is a good thing. At our level (17/18) he's only a couple of points above non-combatant standard.
As for why the Ranger/Druid combo: The character started as a Ranger, and we had a druid in the party. The Ranger was more the huntsman than the naturist, but he liked and worked with the Druid. In character, he attributed his own development of magical ability (Ranger spells) to his working with the Druid. The Druid died, and he kind of took over that role.
A lot of the PCs in our party have sub-optimal multiclassing. That's one of the reasons why my Bard is the most powerful offensive spell caster in the group. I'm not bragging so much as observing a sad reality.
First, this thread was based on him only in the loosest of senses. He didn't have 100k to spend, for openers. The player wasn't writing down the cash portion of any of our treasure picks, so he almost nothing in terms of cash.
We backtracked to the last sizable loot split to determine what he had taken from it, and after seeing that it was pretty much nothing, the group voted that he had the cash value. We also had the loot split we'd just done. Add in what he had actually written down and we had our budget: 73,260.
Since he already had Bracers +6 and a 20 Wisdom, the Monk's belt made a lot of sense. He had some masterworked "Leather scale" armor, but it didn't do anything for him other than look good, so he dumped that. Cheapest +5 AC boost in the book, which took him from a 25 to a 30.
Next he bought Gloves of dexterity +4, which helped his AC, his Initiative, and his archery.
He already had an Amulet of Natural Armor +3, so the Periapt was a non-starter. It would give the same AC bonus per GP spent as the Natural Armor amulet, if he were starting from scratch. As it was, he'd get half value selling the amulet he had, while paying full price for the Periapt, so it made no sense economically.
There was some debate about an Animated Shield, since the Monk's Belt doesn't work when you're wearing armor or shield, but it was ruled that it wouldn't conflict when "in use", since it wouldn't be held or wielded in combat. I'm sure there's been a lot of debate over that combination, and I'm sure there will be more in the future.
So his AC is now up to 35, having spent a shade under 40k on it. He could add to his Ring of Protection or his Amulet. He could also add to the plus on the shield. So he has room to grow with this build, which is a good thing. At our level (17/18) he's only a couple of points above non-combatant standard.
As for why the Ranger/Druid combo: The character started as a Ranger, and we had a druid in the party. The Ranger was more the huntsman than the naturist, but he liked and worked with the Druid. In character, he attributed his own development of magical ability (Ranger spells) to his working with the Druid. The Druid died, and he kind of took over that role.
A lot of the PCs in our party have sub-optimal multiclassing. That's one of the reasons why my Bard is the most powerful offensive spell caster in the group. I'm not bragging so much as observing a sad reality.
Cyclone_Joker
First Post
He could simply add the +Wisdom effect to the Amulet. There are rules for that, after all.
Not really. One of the things to remember about WBL is that being good at anything is expensive. It's always more efficient to either pump something as high as it matters or dump it entirely. AC is even more expensive than most other bonuses. So "non-combat standard" is "A high dex score and maybe some buffs that have AC as a side effect."
Remember, most monsters are just a huge pile of numbers, so unless you're doing better than, on average, level+25 or so, it's generally not worth it. At level 20, If you want AC to matter at all, I suggest absolutely no lower than forty-five, and really you should be aiming for the high seventies if you actually care. Because look at the stats of the high-level monsters. A balor, for example, has a +33 to hit with its primary attack. This means that it cannot miss except on a 1. The fact of the matter is that, against a balor, AC 33 and AC -50 are functionally identical. And the Balor isn't even that threatening for its CR. Look at other monsters, you'll see similar trends.
Yes, I get that, and that sounds like tat made for some great RPing. But what does that have to do with multiclassing druid?
Dude, bards are awesome. A bard being the most powerful only tells me you don't have anything stronger than a favored soul on board.
Greenfield
Adventurer
My quick math suggested that the bare minimum AC should be Level + 14. As in, a 1st level character should be walking around with AC 15, minimum. (Hint: Fighters shouldn't be "minimum".)
Most melee type monsters have a BAB base about the same as their CR, and bonuses from Strength and/or Dex are commonly +4 or so. This may go up a bit when you get to the heavy hitters, but they in turn often suffer a size penalty.
Note, when I say "Level +14 as a base", I'm not saying that this is what your Fighter ACs should be. No, this is where your Rogues, Bards and Wizards should be, as a minimum. Front line types with that AC are lunch meat.
Our Ranger friend was at Level + 7, hence his nickname of "Target". He took it in the teeth every time he got into melee. At 35 AC he's still going to get hit, but now he's more in the 50/50 range, and less in the "Anything but a 1" category.
By your math a 1st level PC should consider AC 26 the bare minimum. Most DM's that I know whould wonder how the hell you got an AC 26 at 1st level.
As for the Druid cross class: I'm not sure I understand your question. I described the Ranger's advancement, and his decision to follow in the ways of his dead Druid friend. You said that was fine, but then asked why he decided to become a Druid.
I'm thinking one of us missed something.
Most melee type monsters have a BAB base about the same as their CR, and bonuses from Strength and/or Dex are commonly +4 or so. This may go up a bit when you get to the heavy hitters, but they in turn often suffer a size penalty.
Note, when I say "Level +14 as a base", I'm not saying that this is what your Fighter ACs should be. No, this is where your Rogues, Bards and Wizards should be, as a minimum. Front line types with that AC are lunch meat.
Our Ranger friend was at Level + 7, hence his nickname of "Target". He took it in the teeth every time he got into melee. At 35 AC he's still going to get hit, but now he's more in the 50/50 range, and less in the "Anything but a 1" category.
By your math a 1st level PC should consider AC 26 the bare minimum. Most DM's that I know whould wonder how the hell you got an AC 26 at 1st level.
As for the Druid cross class: I'm not sure I understand your question. I described the Ranger's advancement, and his decision to follow in the ways of his dead Druid friend. You said that was fine, but then asked why he decided to become a Druid.
I'm thinking one of us missed something.
Cyclone_Joker
First Post
Except this is wrong because anyone who doesn't want to be hit shouldn't bother wasting any resources in AC.
Uh, no. Very, very no.
Judging what your AC should be based on enemies that don't matter is a terrible way to calculate it. Especially since your calculation is only accurate on things that get a bunch of attacks. Furthermore, that figure you gave is still bad because that AC won't block attacks. Not enough to matter, anyways.
Again, wrong. If someone doesn't plan on getting attacked, they shouldn't waste GP on AC. AC is expensive. Like anything else, if you don't put enough into where you're actually good at it, you should waste resources on it.
Except the problem is he still is in that category. As I've established, a Balor, a weaker end CR 20 encounter, which every ECL16+ party is supposed to be ready for, will hit him on a 2. The Big T will hit him on a 2. A dragon will hit him on a 2. Filtering out crap that's not threatening doesn't matter because they're not threatening.
You missed the "on average." AC standards vary dramatically. I consider AC below 50 at level 20 to be low. At level 1, you have to work to top 18.
That said, hitting 25 at level 1 is trivially simple. This is entirely beside the point, though.
Apparently so. The ranger decided to follow the ways of his druid friend. That doesn't explain why he multiclassed.
Jackinthegreen
Explorer
Hang on a sec. You have to work to top 18, but hitting 25 is trivially easy? No, it is not. Hitting 25 AC at level 1 is not something the average Joe is likely to be able to do, or to want to try because their games aren't played at such a high optimization level. As I would hope you've noticed, the majority of people here on ENWorld are not optimizers and thus effectively do not play the same game you do.
As for why the ranger multiclassed: Because he wanted to isn't a good enough reason? When one wants to follow the ways of a druid, one tends to take druid levels. Or are you thinking the character should have used the PC rebuilding rules from the PHB2 to actually have level-appropriate abilities and not be stuck as a 7+ level character with only 1st level druid spells?
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Cyclone_Joker
First Post
...Precocious Apprentice is "high optimization?"
Oh, hey, I haven't seen this one in a few months.
Says who? Why can't a wizard follow the ways of the druid. And, anyways, "following the ways of the druid" is RP, especially for a class that's already got some decent, nature-themed divine magic.
Metagame constructs, dude.
Not what I was going for, but that works, too, I guess.
Jackinthegreen
Explorer
Precocious Apprentice isn't exactly something every character can take, plus it only allows casting a single 2nd level spell once a day. But I'll bite: How, exactly, does Precocious Apprentice fit in to getting AC 25 reliably at 1st level?
"Following in the ways of the druid" heavily implies actually getting the class features of a druid, which is best done with actual druid levels. Hence multiclassing.
Cyclone_Joker
First Post
Alter Self. You're welcome.
Not at all. The druidic ways are a belief. They can grant divine power, but there's no reason someone could follow it without being a druid. In fact, the idea that "following the druidic ways" makes one take levels of druid is campaign-destroying with the implication that you can just churn out a huge amount of full-casters.
There's no reason you couldn't have a druidic sorcerer or a druidic fighter. This is even more true when the PC in question already has nature-derived divine magic. Classes are metagame constructs. People in games(Or, rather, in every game I've ever been in) don't introduce themselves as "Bob the eighth-level fighter."
delericho
Legend
Okay, I'll bite. Given that that's a spell with "Target: You", the character can only cast it on himself. Since he's 1st level, he can only adopt the form of 1HD creatures, which rules out the Troglodyte (which is the big hitter in the SRD as far as natural armour bonus is concerned).
So, what's the rest of the build? What form does he adopt? In short, where does this AC25 come from?
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