"Speed of Light"

Janx

Hero
Is it possible? Well, sure, it is possible. But note that the simulation posit is what we'd call "non-falsifiable", meaning that there is no test we could do, no information would could ever have, even in theory, that would prove it *wasn't* a simulation. Any evidence we had could be countered with, "Well, the simulation is written to give you that result." So, the simulation idea is ultimately not a scientific question, but a philosophic one.

But, that something so central to how the Universe works is just an artifact? In videogames, programmers go to great lengths to reduce the impact of rendering artifacts on the experience. But photons are friggin' *everywhere*, and most definitely impact the simulation experience. So, if they are artifacts, our programmers aren't very good at their job, now are they?

Note, you're using artifact like its a bad thing. "artifact" in computing is only bad to graphics people as it means a defect in the image. I may have chosen a less good word, as I really mean, "a component of the system" Given that photons (in the universal simulator) ARE the rendering process, there aren't really any glitches. Except now that people are studying them.. :)

On the "It's Possible" I was mainly seeing if "photon wierdness is Simulation Behavior" has more possibility of intent than "just happens to be there." Kind of like walking into a strangers house a seeing a brick next to a door. That brick might just happen to be there. But when we notice that door doesn't tend to stay open, it becomes obvious that somebody intended the brick to be used to hold the door open. That doesn't guarrantee that we're right on the presence of the brick versus the owner's intent. But the proximity of a problem and a solution seems far from coincidental.
 

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freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
On the "It's Possible" I was mainly seeing if "photon wierdness is Simulation Behavior" has more possibility of intent than "just happens to be there." Kind of like walking into a strangers house a seeing a brick next to a door. That brick might just happen to be there. But when we notice that door doesn't tend to stay open, it becomes obvious that somebody intended the brick to be used to hold the door open. That doesn't guarrantee that we're right on the presence of the brick versus the owner's intent. But the proximity of a problem and a solution seems far from coincidental.

I feel like I should say that photons don't behave more "weirdly" than anything else. I don't want anyone to get the impression that they do.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
You do NOT get fanciful about naming. You've spent half a century congratulating yourselves for "strange" quarks like that's some genius display of eccentric creativity. It's not. :)

It isn't like we've reached energies such that we've seen tons of new things to name in those 50 years, though.

And, well, penguin diagrams.

You all collectively need to read a comic book someday!

(Which is weird, given that every physicist I know loves comic books. The - arguably - two most famous current popular physicists aside from Hawking - Neil deGrass Tyson and Prof Brian Cox - are both woefully ignorant of both).

The guys popular in the media are so busy, I don't expect them to have lots of time for popular entertainment.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Note, you're using artifact like its a bad thing. "artifact" in computing is only bad to graphics people as it means a defect in the image.

In context, that seemed like the obvious meaning for you to have been aiming for.

Given that photons (in the universal simulator) ARE the rendering process, there aren't really any glitches.

Well, to be honest, that's assuming there *is* a rendering process. But, you can run a simulation without ever writing out the moment-to-moment state of the simulation. Your experience does not need to be written to "screen" - everything you experience may be in memory/processor.

On the "It's Possible" I was mainly seeing if "photon weirdness is Simulation Behavior" has more possibility of intent than "just happens to be there."

Intent? If you're looking to see "intent" in the structure of the Universe, you're definitely in the philosophical, rather than the scientific.
 

Janx

Hero
In context, that seemed like the obvious meaning for you to have been aiming for.

Both yes and no. In my line of work, artifacts are things we look for in analyzing a business process. So it's not a negative so much as an attribute of their universe we are happy to find so we can handle it.

Well, to be honest, that's assuming there *is* a rendering process. But, you can run a simulation without ever writing out the moment-to-moment state of the simulation. Your experience does not need to be written to "screen" - everything you experience may be in memory/processor.

Again, yes and no. If I was rendering to a central view screen, that's the more obvious use of a rendering process. MOBs in a game don't actually need to see each other, as they are aware of each other's X,Y, and Z natively.

However, if I was writing an AI as its own object/entity in a FPS, I may indeed need to write a rendering process so it can "see" the universe and then it's object recognition sequence can execute and interpret what it "sees". Game programmers skip that crap, because the AI and the game world are on the same plane of operation, so they can cut corners.

But if you were building an autonomous robot, you'd need a camera and an optical parsing engine to interpret what it sees into stuff it can respond to.

You could then disconnect the video camera, and connect it's brain to your Xbox's HDMI jack and make it play Halo (because it recieves a comparable visual image that it then inteprets into walls, people ,etc).

At this point, you have a universe (the game) that is going through a reaction/rendering cycle, and a separate process (the robot brain) that is unwittingly interacting with it.

Now when we go to super-technology, both the game world and the robot brain (AI) are running on the same super-duper computer, and in fact, the AI is part of the regular simulation.

So, it's like the rendering sequence (photons) is serving the AI's need to see and be self-contained from the simulation, while the AIs are actually made of the simulation. Kind of like the guy who made an 8 bit computer inside of Minecraft.

Hypothetically, the photons exist because it's the only way any entity could "see" another entity in order to interact with it (or avoid falling into lava and dying).

Bear in mind, programmers often employ a concept of separation of church and state in our code. One module (the AI) isn't allowed to know about or talk to other modules except through interfaces we devise for the purpose. So while in a game, the bad guy knows you're in the room behind the door because the programmer didn't separate that, we might code it that the bad guy doesn't know anything, except that we can trace a line from his eye toward the direction he is looking and if it doesn't reach you, he doesn't respond to you. That separation is what invokes more "real life" behavior.

Intent? If you're looking to see "intent" in the structure of the Universe, you're definitely in the philosophical, rather than the scientific.

Again, yes and no. Something that is an exception to the norm may indicate intent, rather than random coincidence. One does not usually find a brick sitting in a house. But when you see it next to a door, it is no longer random as somebody just left it there, now there's a strong probability that it was to prop the door open, because that's what one might do.

Just as we don't expect to find a brick in the middle of a cow pasture. Just sitting there. it's not likely to happen. Which means somebody put it there. Lacking any proximity to anything a brick might be useful, it's just sort of random and we cannot deduce a purpose. Unlike the brick in a house next to a door that won't stay open.

It's possible the weirdness of photons is more like a brick in a field than a brick next to a door (or that they're very much less like a man-made brick given that they are as unnatural as quarks and protons).
 

Janx

Hero
I feel like I should say that photons don't behave more "weirdly" than anything else. I don't want anyone to get the impression that they do.

They have no mass and they travel at the speed of c away from 2 observers who are also travelling at differing speeds.

I'd ask "what else does that" but there's likely a category of weird things that does it.

to us normal people who can't do that trick when we're on a train, that's wierd.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But if you were building an autonomous robot, you'd need a camera and an optical parsing engine to interpret what it sees into stuff it can respond to.

Rendering is required to cross the simulation/non-simulation boundary.

We don't have a robot within a real space, taking in data and having some gaps in how we model the real world in his computer brain. Nor do we have a computer world being displayed for a human being. If we are positing the Universe is a simulation, then so far as we know, the space and everything within the space is also part of the model. If the Universe is a simulation, you, I, and everything in it are part of the simulation.

As a part of the simulation, I don't need it to be rendered to interact with it. My interactions are *part* of the situation.

Heck, if the Universe is a simulation, you'd kind of expect the bits of it that are supposed to be "sentient" to not recognize the fact - "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

You could then disconnect the video camera, and connect it's brain to your Xbox's HDMI jack and make it play Halo (because it recieves a comparable visual image that it then inteprets into walls, people ,etc).

You could, but... wouldn't that be kind of silly and pointless? Let us take a game designed to entertain humans, and instead let it occupy a machine incapable of feeling entertained! While any number of government grants get spent that way, I'm sure, isn't someone capable of consistently simulating an entire universe have something better to do with it's time? What the heck kind of robot are you trying to train using an entire universe?

The problem with Philosophical models of the universe is just this - you can go down incredibly deep ratholes of what *might* be true, with absolutely no real way to resolve questions. Anything at all *might* be true, if you invoke such non-falsifiable forces to make things go.
 
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freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
They have no mass and they travel at the speed of c away from 2 observers who are also travelling at differing speeds.

I'd ask "what else does that" but there's likely a category of weird things that does it.

to us normal people who can't do that trick when we're on a train, that's wierd.

Gravitons, gluons, used to be people thought neutrinos... :p

But that's not the issue with "we don't know where the photon is between emission and absorption." That's quantum mechanics, which describes everything, massless or not.

And I'd put all kinds of other relativistic effects that massive particles experience just as high on the "weird" scale --- velocities don't add in the "usual" way at any significant fraction of c. The case of light beams is just the limit. Of course, the only reason we think of this as weird is because we don't interact much with really fast massive stuff. And, in our daily lives, light moves so quickly as to be effectively infinitely fast.
 

Scott DeWar

Prof. Emeritus-Supernatural Events/Countermeasure
need some humor here . . . . . good clean fun . . . . .

A photon enters a hotel. The bellboy walks up and asks, can I help with your luggage?
The photon responds, no thanks, I'm traveling light.

The bartender says, "I'm sorry, we don't serve faster-than-light particles here."
A tachyon walks into a bar.

Argon walks into a bar. The bartender says, I'm sorry, we don't serve noble gasses here.
Argon doesn't react.

math jokes:

a group of mathematicians walk into a bar. The first asks for a liter drink, the next half a liter, then a quarter liter, then an eighth liter, etc. The bartender puts 2 liters on the table and says, you don't know your limits.

A mathematician, a physicist, and an astronomer were traveling north by train. They had just crossed the border into Scotland, when the astronomer looked out of the window and saw a single black sheep in the middle of a field. "All Scottish sheep are black," she remarked. "No, my friend," replied the physicist, "Some Scottish sheep are black." At which point the mathematician looked up from her paper and glanced out the window. After a few seconds' thought she said blandly: "In Scotland, there exists at least one field - in which there exists at least one sheep - at least one side of which is black."
 
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