The one night stand culture

Bullgrit said:

States? Plural? Advertisements? Plural? Billboards? Plural?

Actually, it was one billboard, in one city, apparently over a misunderstanding. "However, buses all over town are still cruising the streets baring the original posters of the wrestlers --male nipples and all." http://www.tmz.com/2008/03/28/wwe-puts-the-squeeze-on-nipples/

See, when folks start pointing at one or two individual instances of stupidity, or mistakes, or personal over-zealousness, and then claim those minor instances are indicative of a vast pattern, any hope for intellectually honest discussion is lost.

Bullgrit

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As long as we're talking about "hope for intellectually honest discussion", I think it may become prudent for you to say what could convince you. We can safely conclude that "public actions", "laws", "ended careers", "rape victims being driven out of their towns", "culture that errs on the side of the rapist to the degree of ostracizing the rape victim", "media reactions", "sex education" and "transwomen, particularly transwomen of color, continue to suffer extreme amounts of violence and murder" are all not on said list.

Edit: Heck, I'll even go first. I could be convinced that America is not sexually repressed if
(a) no sexual identity or expression was not positively correlated (to a statistically significant degree) with increased abuse, bias and violence.
(b) 50% of rapists spend at least a day behind bars (not even prison, just a holding cell) as a consequence of said rape (not even a conviction necessary).
(c) Female and male promiscuity are treated equally.

what could convince you

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What would convince me that what I see on a daily basis, and what I've experienced over 46 years is wrong? Well, maybe some evidence that is more than rare incidents, and that is not just shocking claims either made up whole-clothe or blown up far beyond the actual facts.

This idea that America is sexually repressive is sort of like the idea that New York City is a dangerous place. Someone could take all the news stories, all the individual anecdotes, all the myths and legends, and pile them up on a message board and make it look like there's drugs and robbery and murder all over the place in NYC. Holy crap, it would be dangerous foolishness to even visit that place. But the fact is that the vast majority of New Yorkers live happy and safe their entire life.

It's hard to convince someone that their culture is actually different than what they've seen and experienced their entire life. Rare and odd instances don't make a general culture.

Bullgrit

Bullgrit said:

What would convince me that what I see on a daily basis, and what I've experienced over 46 years is wrong?

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It's all relative. Of course it's not repressed compared to what you consider the norm; you were brought up in it. But folks are discussing the topic as compared to other Western countries. One thing many of your questions in this forum reveal is that you haven't traveled much outside your own country. That's fine, and it's cool that you ask for information and seek to broaden your knowledge base. I respect you for doing that.

It's important to release that when discussing relative concepts like this, it's as compared to elsewhere. Politicians in Italy don't get condemned for their sex lives; France doesn't have a big Bible Belt condemning a whole demographic based on their sexuality; Amsterdam has sex workers acting legally and safely; basic public broadcast TV (i.e. not cable and the like) in the UK has plenty of breasts and sex and the like, and that's pretty tame compared to the rest of Europe. I don't know enough about Eastern Europe or Russia to comment on those. Nor India or China or most of Asia. I've been to Japan, and vending machines had sexual content, and pornographic comic books sat on the bottom shelves in many shops.

Now, I've been to the US a half-dozen times. In total, I've only spent about 3 months there. So I am definitely NOT making any claims one way or the other, except to observe that your country is widely regarded as extremely prudish about sex, and enthusiastic about violence, and this comes across in the media you export. Whether that view is justified or not is another matter, and I'll leave it to others to hash out. I'll just try to define the topic at hand, because I think you seem to be mistaking the term "sexual repression" for "not being allowed to have sex". That's not what it means. It refers to the culture surrounding the subject, not the act itself, and this debate will certainly work better with at least an agreed-upon definition.

Some elements of the subject (not all) include:

• comprehensive sex education
• topless or nudist beaches and other areas
• the amount of sexual content on freely available television
• legal or decriminalized prostitution
• attitudes of voters or media regarding the sex lives of politicians
• pro-gay legislation
• age of sexual consent
• controversies regarding topic like abortion, rape, and other issues
• freely available contraception
• the need to fetishise, ritualise, or label normal sexual behaviour or culture (your own use of the term "one night stand culture" being an example of that)

That's just some of the things. Now, it's no surprise that the US is by a long way the most conservative (and religious) Western country. That's veering too much into politics and religion, though, so we can't discuss that - but that's likely the broader issue, of which this topic is but a microcosm. But we'll need to reign the topic in to the more focused one at hand, while acknowledging that we're skirting round the larger picture.

(Incidentally, I'd hardly claim that my own country is a bastion of free sexual expression -- it's less so than much of Western Europe by a long shot.)

EscherEnigma said:

As long as we're talking about "hope for intellectually honest discussion", I think it may become prudent for you to say what could convince you. We can safely conclude that "public actions", "laws", "ended careers", "rape victims being driven out of their towns", "culture that errs on the side of the rapist to the degree of ostracizing the rape victim", "media reactions", "sex education" and "transwomen, particularly transwomen of color, continue to suffer extreme amounts of violence and murder" are all not on said list.

Edit: Heck, I'll even go first. I could be convinced that America is not sexually repressed if
(a) no sexual identity or expression was not positively correlated (to a statistically significant degree) with increased abuse, bias and violence.
(b) 50% of rapists spend at least a day behind bars (not even prison, just a holding cell) as a consequence of said rape (not even a conviction necessary).
(c) Female and male promiscuity are treated equally.

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I'd say that maybe the issue at hand is that America has hypocrisy and duality issues.

It is true as BG says, that you can get sexed up any way or time you want. It's out there. And nobody is picketing in front of where it is.

But it's also true that if you flaunt it, it's going to attract the trolls who are gonna make like hard for you.

It's also an age group thing. teens and twenty somethings are less prudish than older folks. As one politician who changed his mind on being anti-gay in his politics, his kid told him "dad, that stuff doesn't matter anymore."

That doesn't mean all teens and twenty-somethings are pro-gay and open sex, but they are WAY more sexual than they used to be as a whole, and way more accepting of different sexual values.

It almost says more about the jerks who pick on the gay kid at school as the jerks are the minority with wierd social values nowadays as everybody else likes the gay kid.

Bullgrit said:

Tried it once and found it to be the most uncomfortable intimate experience. A while later, I let myself get caught up in one to the point where when I realized I really didn't want it again, it was uncomfortable untangling from the situation. So, I can knock it with experience as not a thing for me. And that's why I don't understand the culture of those who do such on a regular basis.

Bullgrit

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Because some people enjoy it. If you don't, that's cool and good that you understand that about yourself. Humans aren't inherently monogamous but large societies work better when the majority are socially conditioned to be.

Bullgrit said:

This idea that America is sexually repressive is sort of like the idea that New York City is a dangerous place.

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New York is a dangerous place. As [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] notes, it's all relative. Walking down the street in New York is definitely less dangerous than climbing Mount Everest or touring North Korea, but there is a significant amount of violent crime and accidental death there, much of which is avoidable/preventable.

Likewise, America has more sexual freedom than Iran and more than it did itself a century ago, but less than most of the first world and less than it could.

Edit: Heck, I'll even go first. I could be convinced that America is not sexually repressed if
(snip)
(b) 50% of rapists spend at least a day behind bars (not even prison, just a holding cell) as a consequence of said rape (not even a conviction necessary).

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Sad to say, that rate may not be achieved in any country in the world, if for no other reason than a large number of rapes go unreported.

That's without even getting into a discussion of victims who are not believed, backlogs in testing forensics, statutes of limitations coupled with overwhelmed court systems, and other issues.

Dannyalcatraz said:

Sad to say, that rate may not be achieved in any country in the world, if for no other reason than a large number of rapes go unreported.

That's without even getting into a discussion of victims who are not believed, backlogs in testing forensics, statutes of limitations coupled with overwhelmed court systems, and other issues.

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Which is, to some extent, a consequence of America's sexually repressive culture. People are afraid to talk about these things, and often times those fears have a basis in fact.

EscherEnigma said:

Edit: Heck, I'll even go first. I could be convinced that America is not sexually repressed if
(a) no sexual identity or expression was not positively correlated (to a statistically significant degree) with increased abuse, bias and violence.

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I'd have to agree with the others, that America's got some issues with respect to sexuality.

When discussing this, I'd have to suggest avoiding absolutes - like the one above - *NO* identity or expression was positively correlated to abuse? In order to prove the culture as a whole is okay, there must be no cases at all? That seems extreme. No matter how well balanced a culture is on the whole, there will be a few screwed up individuals.

(Not that we are anywhere near that point with sexual identity and expression - the culture still has problems with that. I just think absolutes are apt to get us in trouble in this discussion.)

As an example, I'll refer to what I mentioned above. There seems to be an implication in this thread that, if you set aside STDs and pregnancy, there are *no* negative consequences to casual intimate relations between consenting, informed adults. But, as I noted, for some folks this can lead to depression - not because they are "repressed", but for solid neurobiological reasons. The implied absolute ("all people would be okay if they were promiscuous") is not true.

Just as those who follow the culturally accepted pattern need to make room for those outside those norms, those who want room made for them should not pass judgement on individuals because they fit the norm. Tolerance works both ways.