D&D 5E Can mundane classes have a resource which powers abilities?

If people want to play superhero games there are plenty out there. Why does D&D need to become one?

The fighter was the consistent performer and the class of choice for players who just wanted to kick some ass and not have to track stuff.

The magic using classes were all about managing limited resources. Then the magic using classes got tired of being limited so they called the Waaaahhhhmbulance until they got at-will reliable magic to perform consistently AND pull out the show stoppers when needed.

Now the fighter, with his one advantage stripped away either cries louder than the spell users until he gets his BOOM abilities or lives with being a sidekick.

Thus the new toy escalation wars are born. Keep cranking everything up to 11 until you may as well just play in the Marvel universe because all the characters would fit right in.

Am I the only one who thinks a saner option is dialing things back a bit towards traditional fantasy instead of pushing towards MOAR MOAR MOAR?

Its entirely possible, but I think its HOW its used that matters.

In 3e, there were two examples: the barbarian and the knight (PHB2). Both had a pool of ability (rage, knight's challenge) that granted them powers. The trick is that a barbarian's granted him "invisible" power; rage is powerful but doesn't affect the available actions (since all it does is improve ability scores/melee combat and hp) but doesn't bestow "new" actions. Knight, on the other hand, does a bit; some of its abilities are morale-based and probably fine, but I'm not a fan of the "challenge your foes" part (aka the CaGI powers) But its worth noting that technically, neither is magical and both are trying to emulate concepts (adrenaline, morale) that have been hard to define in D&D previously.

Is there room for that? Absolutely. It just can't be as on-the-nose as it was in 4e.

Rage Class- Barbarian
Resource- Rage


Greed Class-Merchant
Resource-Income (Gains gold per day to replace spent ammo and equipment)


Fear Class-Reaver
Resource- Fear (Gruesome fighting style causes reader to look scarier. Spends Fear built up in enemies to panic or demoralize enemies)


Willpower Class-Martial Artist
Resource- Will


For people who like tracking stuff but don't want to play a dude in a dress who can't take a hit.

I think what the barbarian teaches us is that there are basically three ways that these limitations can play out.

One, the barbarian uses all his rages for the day, and then when another situation arises that demands it, he can't rage. Doesn't matter if his entire family was just massacred in front of him Red Wedding style and his nemesis is standing in front of him, or if he's hanging on the edge of a cliff and needs the extra strength to pull himself up rather than fall to his death. He just isn't feeling it.

Two, the barbarian, concerned about using up his rages for the day, conserves them. Situations arise that might provoke his ire or provide a good opportunity for him to use his strength, but he holds back because he thinks he might need it more later. Because that's what playing a barbarian is all about: cautious planning and restraint!

Three, the barbarian has a large enough number of rages and faces a small enough number of challenges that he simply never runs out of rage, rendering the daily limitation a mechanical sham. It's the same problem as min/maxing flaws by taking ones that don't matter; the rage limitation is there on paper but in the game it doesn't matter.

***

IME, it's usually the third one. Generally, barbarian players would waste a feat on Extra Rage and then rarely fight more than one serious battle in a day. However, the second scenario also comes into play and it drives me nuts. Resource management encourages players to fear the unknown and conserve resources, which is exactly the opposite of the kind of heroic adventurer that I am looking for. Occasionally the first scenario arises, and the players complain about it, and they should.

All of which is why I simply took the daily limit off (and left the fatigue on). No need to do anything more than that.

***

Of course, all of these play differently with spellcasters. A cleric using his weapon and conserving his spells because he doesn't want to waste his god's favor on minutiae makes sense. It's called respect. A glasses-wearing academic conservatively managing his mystical powers because he is afraid of being caught without them makes sense.

A warrior should generally be trying as hard as he thinks he needs to in order to win the battle. Saving his skill, emotion, or luck for later doesn't make sense. Saving his stamina might, but stamina is already folded into an existing resource (hit points).

Remathilis said:

Its entirely possible, but I think its HOW its used that matters.

In 3e, there were two examples: the barbarian and the knight (PHB2). Both had a pool of ability (rage, knight's challenge) that granted them powers. The trick is that a barbarian's granted him "invisible" power; rage is powerful but doesn't affect the available actions (since all it does is improve ability scores/melee combat and hp) but doesn't bestow "new" actions. Knight, on the other hand, does a bit; some of its abilities are morale-based and probably fine, but I'm not a fan of the "challenge your foes" part (aka the CaGI powers) But its worth noting that technically, neither is magical and both are trying to emulate concepts (adrenaline, morale) that have been hard to define in D&D previously.

Is there room for that? Absolutely. It just can't be as on-the-nose as it was in 4e.

Click to expand...

Right. As the GM I always classed the Barbarian Rage/Berserker power as an extraordinary thing granted from on high. I completely dumped the Knight "challenge" crap. The effecting people at a distance "magically" but without magic isn't part of my games.

Fighter's have recharge-on-rest (encounter powers) in Next.
Barbarians have Rage.
Monks have Ki.
Rogues dont yet have encounter or daily resources, but they do have round by round resources.

All are incredibly easy to track, grounded in verisimilitude, and add layers of depth and meaningful strategic choice to the game.

I think it's clear most players prefer some mundane resource management as long as its believable.

Jester Canuck said:

Despite being a video game, Warcraft is a good example of this as you have rage that builds as you enter combat, so the longer you fight the more special moves unlock. And there's also energy, which is a set pool of 100, so you have to balance which powers you use, alternating between high energy moves and low energy moves.

Click to expand...

And how do you balance that over the course of only two rounds? This edition isn't the sort of tactical combat game where you can spend resources and still have time to recover them later before using them again in the same combat.

ExploderWizard said:

If people want to play superhero games there are plenty out there. Why does D&D need to become one?

The fighter was the consistent performer and the class of choice for players who just wanted to kick some ass and not have to track stuff.

The magic using classes were all about managing limited resources. Then the magic using classes got tired of being limited so they called the Waaaahhhhmbulance until they got at-will reliable magic to perform consistently AND pull out the show stoppers when needed.

Now the fighter, with his one advantage stripped away either cries louder than the spell users until he gets his BOOM abilities or lives with being a sidekick.

Thus the new toy escalation wars are born. Keep cranking everything up to 11 until you may as well just play in the Marvel universe because all the characters would fit right in.

Am I the only one who thinks a saner option is dialing things back a bit towards traditional fantasy instead of pushing towards MOAR MOAR MOAR?

Click to expand...

But why must play style be tied to a archetype/power source?

Can't there be a Constant Power Warrior, Resource Management Warrior, Constant Power SpellCaster (Of both types of magic), and a Resource Managemt Spellcaster?

If D&D did this earlier and had a working multi/dual class system, we might have never got to that problem. Then people could play with the strategy they prefer and not be locked in a character type they dislike or prefer not to play this time.

Ahnehnois said:

Three, the barbarian has a large enough number of rages and faces a small enough number of challenges that he simply never runs out of rage, rendering the daily limitation a mechanical sham. It's the same problem as min/maxing flaws by taking ones that don't matter; the rage limitation is there on paper but in the game it doesn't matter.

Click to expand...

At that point, you have to balance the rage itself so that it doesn't actually make you better in any way. You can't be better while raging and worse while not-raging, because you'll never be not-raging. And if that's the case, why even have it?

Minigiant said:

But why must play style be tied to a archetype/power source?

Can't there be a Constant Power Warrior, Resource Management Warrior, Constant Power SpellCaster (Of both types of magic), and a Resource Managemt Spellcaster?

If D&D did this earlier and had a working multi/dual class system, we might have never got to that problem. Then people could play with the strategy they prefer and not be locked in a character type they dislike or prefer not to play this time.

Click to expand...

Mechanically yes. Doing so and maintaining the feel of D&D not so much. Calling magic something else and just labeling it as a power source is basically a transformation to the supers genre. Everyone just has these cool powers that work somehow and they form a team of crimefighters...err.. adventurers.