Storminator
First Post
I would consider that to be 1) a dungeon, and 2) a pretty sweet map.
PS
PS
Dungeons?
Celebrim
Legend
We have very different standards about what a 'dungeon' means then.
Your example map with its 4-5 locations not only counts as a dungeon by my understanding, but would be fairly close to an ideal design as outlined in my 'How do you design a good dungeon' post.
In that post, I define even something as simple as a covered bridge as a potential dungeon. Likewise, a one room hut can be a dungeon.
If it's got a map, an encounter key, and its enclosed in some fashion - it's a dungeon.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
Different definitions are an expectation in anything I might post. To me a dungeon is quite literal as to what it is - catacomb levels underground, most often beneath some surface structure such as a castle or ruin. Although I would call a mine, a mine, I would also consider that under the title "dungeons". I would define a bridge with a key, as a bridge or as an encounter location and not a dungeon. If every encounter location is a dungeon, wouldn't your vote here be 100%? To me the previously posted map is a lair under a tree and an encounter location, not a dungeon. I'm quite literal in my definitions of most things.
Storminator
First Post
I, obviously, don't have quite the restrictive definition you do. But if my outdoor encounter map has 6 squares with trees and 4 squares with rocks and the rest of ~400 squares are open terrain, that's not a dungeon. Since I have those pretty regularly, I'm not pushing 100%.
PS
JRRNeiklot
First Post
Maybe 30. It varies by adventure. Could be as many as 100% or as little as 0. On average, though, I'd say about 30%. I'm old school, though. random encounters are a big part of my campaign.
Celebrim
Legend
Ok, consider the following:
a) A sewer system.
b) A caves complex.
c) A tomb.
d) An underground temple.
e) A dwarven fortress
f) An underground city.
g) An undercity with a layer of streets and buildings in the 'basement' of the city.
Dungeons or not, despite not being literal jails?
Now, how far down the size scale do you have to be?
a) An oubliette beneath a ruined tower. Dungeon or not?
b) A single shaft mine dug by a prospector. Dungeon or not?
c) A small sepulchre chamber of perhaps 1-6 rooms, similar in scale to King Tut's tomb or smaller. Dungeon or not?
e) An underground shrine encompasing a single room with a floorplan similar to a greek or egyptian temple. Dungeon or not?
f) A cellar or basement of a ruined home. Dungeon or not?
What's the minimum number of rooms in a dungeon?
And again, suppose we take the map of a dungeon and we move the whole complex above ground. The thing you agreed was a dungeon - such as a trap filled tomb - is now an above ground mosuleum. If it's not a dungeon now, what is it? And is the above ground ruins or castle also part of the dungeon, and if so, does it remain a dungeon when we remove the basement?
Suppose the bridge was say 120' long, and there were multiple encounters along its lenght, and also in its superstructure (the rafters) and substructure (the ravine and stream it bridged, and the trestle that supported it)? How extensive does it have to be before it is not an 'encounter location' and becomes a more complex lair, with say a giant spider, a troll, a trap (rotten floor), a giant carp, and so forth?
I voted 50% but noted I considered this below the ideal. Some encounters occur without a map, even when a map would be preferable. Some encounters however occur outside of any enclosing space, and so are not a dungeon. An encounter in an open field, in an arbitrary city street, or while flying, isn't in a dungeon. An encounter in an enclosing space, but which has been improvised and has no clear connection to anything else - say suddenly a fight breaks out in the throne room but I have no map of the palace or a fight breaks out in the withdrawing room but I have no map of the town home - isn't in a dungeon though technically it probably should be.
I should note that on one level I agree with you. It's possible to reach 100%. Anything can be a dungeon. I once came up with a design for a castaway style desert island that as designed was one large dungeon in a clever disguise.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
Pretty much all dungeons, except maybe not a cellar/basement (second f) - I consider a cellar/basement, a cellar/basement, or part of a surface building (being underground doesn't make it a dungeon by my definition).
Who knows, more than 5? Usually more than one level as well, though I'll count a single level underground catacombs as a dungeon.
As previously stated, my surface structures look nothing like a dungeon or catacomb. I've never created a surface building to resemble a dungeon. Generally except for the thickest walls of a castle, most buildings comprise of walls no thicker than 2.5', though usually only 1 foot wide. While my dungeon walls are as thick as the space between two corridors, which is generally 5' or thicker walls. In a building the vast majority of space is taken up with the chambers and corridors, while on a dungeon map it might be 50% total area as open chambers and corridors with the rest being solid rock.
Though I'd never put a dungeon design and put on the surface (ever) - if it was truly on the surface, I'd not call it a dungeon, more probably a fortress of some kind. Again my fortresses look nothing like my dungeons.
A bridge is a bridge no matter how far across, be it 10' across a small stream or 10,000' crossing a lake, its a bridge or an encounter location. If the bridge is within a dungeon or cavern system, I'd call a bridge an encounter location in a dungeon or cave. Note I'm defining encounter location, as what you'd call a dungeon. (To me a dungeon is a specific thing, not a general category to describe any enclosed encounter.)
If there's no map, I usually create one, though I generally don't run published adventures, except to playtest my own published adventures. Most often I run homebrews and I create a map for everything. Only when an unplanned encounter occurs do I use a white board to create a simplified map to run it.
If you never played D&D or an RPG game that included a dungeon and someone asked you what a dungeon is - its probably the same definition as mine as to what a dungeon is... a very specific thing.
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Celebrim
Legend
Believe it or not, I do my own mapping as well. But you are sort of evading the point. Must a dungeon have 5' or thicker walls to be a dungeon? If an underground temple complex didn't have 5' or thicker walls, would it cease to be a dungeon? If not, would the same map, if it reflected instead the interior of a ziggurat rather than a series of underground levels, not represent a dungeon? How about if the entire complex was inside a pyramid? Would it be a dungeon then?
One of my 'dungeons' was a six story foundry complex organized around a central shaft containing a crane system for raising and lowering items. Each of the stories consisted of either a balcony opening on to a ring of rooms, or two concentric rings of rooms with a central corridor - plus a few additional complexities that aren't relevant. There were few or no windows, and none on the first two floors. As a practical matter, the entire map system could be sunk underground and reused for part of a dwarf or goblin factory complex. The actual spatial position above or below ground isn't really relevant to how it plays.
Is 'Castle Ravenloft' not a dungeon?
So must we now have a new term of art for adventuring indoors, but not in either a town setting or a 'dungeon'? What shall we call it?
I find it impossible to create a map for everything. The city of Talernga has 140,000 people covers two square miles in buildings often seven stories high, and has an undercity with more than 50 miles of passages. The city of Amalteen had 40,000 people, then I wiped out half of the map with a tsunami and created a debris field. Even the wilderness between the two is mapped only in the broadest terms. I could map 10-20 hours a week and not keep up with demand for maps.
Maybe, but it probably wouldn't be your specific thing. I think you'd get a dictionary definition of a cell for containing prisoners, often underground. If you got a gaming definition, I think it might related to World of Warcraft's usage of 'instanced dungeon'. Those are more commonly known in WoW as 'instance' in the same way that NPC's are more commonly called MOB (mobile object), after the old MUD (multi-user dungeon) terminology.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
I am in no way attempting to create a new, specific definition for 'dungeon' for anyone - it only applies to me and probably the majority those only familiar with dungeons in the literary sense, outside of the roleplaying game community. It is due to my personal definition of the word, that I made my particular poll choice. I am merely acknowledging that. And as previously stated, if I were to redefine my own definition to match yours, it might be more like 50+%
Even after having played D&D in various iterations since AD&D 1e, I've only ever considered a dungeon as some underground labrynth of mortared or fitted stone. Since I did run Castle Ravenloft, rather than playing in it, I considered that an ornate castle and not a dungeon, the dungeon in that adventure was under Castle Ravenloft. I've never used dungeon as a generic term to define all interior structures.
A building's exterior to a large extent determines what its interior space looks like, the interior configuration of the floorplan could be many designs, however, the outer most chambers are at least partially determined by the exterior structure. A building floorplan will (at least in my maps) look different from a dungeon map. A dungeon or cavern system being cut (naturally or otherwise) from solid rock really has no 'exterior' structural concerns, so interior layouts can meander in any direction (xyz axis). For this reason dungeon/cavern maps look completely different than surface structure maps - and why I separate dungeons from any other adventure encounter location be it urban ghetto, castle, temple, grandma's house, any other interior place.
Dungeons and Dragons are both iconic aspects of the game, however just as not every encounter site is a dungeon, not every monster is a dragon, by my definition you could play entire campaigns that include neither and yet fully portray the RPG experience.
Again, I am not defining the concept of dungeon for everyone, only explaining why I made the poll choice I did - nothing else. I am discovering that many of the thread responders treat the word differently. That's fine, I am OK with that. Just to be clear, if I am talking about an above ground encounter location, such as a temple, I call it that. If a temple is found in a dungeon complex (they often are), then I call it a temple in a dungeon or an underground temple. Even in published adventures I am involved with if there is no actual dungeon in the module, that word will never come up in any of the textual content. I don't think that is confusing anyone, especially since my encounter locations tend to be very specific. Why use a general term when a specific one is far more explanatory to the GM or reader of a map?
I don't need to redefine the word, as I can be clearly understood by the vocabulary I choose to use. When I do use the word dungeon, it's clear that it is exactly that.
I don't mean to sound snarky in any of this, its just how I define the word.
Even after having played D&D in various iterations since AD&D 1e, I've only ever considered a dungeon as some underground labrynth of mortared or fitted stone. Since I did run Castle Ravenloft, rather than playing in it, I considered that an ornate castle and not a dungeon, the dungeon in that adventure was under Castle Ravenloft. I've never used dungeon as a generic term to define all interior structures.
A building's exterior to a large extent determines what its interior space looks like, the interior configuration of the floorplan could be many designs, however, the outer most chambers are at least partially determined by the exterior structure. A building floorplan will (at least in my maps) look different from a dungeon map. A dungeon or cavern system being cut (naturally or otherwise) from solid rock really has no 'exterior' structural concerns, so interior layouts can meander in any direction (xyz axis). For this reason dungeon/cavern maps look completely different than surface structure maps - and why I separate dungeons from any other adventure encounter location be it urban ghetto, castle, temple, grandma's house, any other interior place.
Dungeons and Dragons are both iconic aspects of the game, however just as not every encounter site is a dungeon, not every monster is a dragon, by my definition you could play entire campaigns that include neither and yet fully portray the RPG experience.
Again, I am not defining the concept of dungeon for everyone, only explaining why I made the poll choice I did - nothing else. I am discovering that many of the thread responders treat the word differently. That's fine, I am OK with that. Just to be clear, if I am talking about an above ground encounter location, such as a temple, I call it that. If a temple is found in a dungeon complex (they often are), then I call it a temple in a dungeon or an underground temple. Even in published adventures I am involved with if there is no actual dungeon in the module, that word will never come up in any of the textual content. I don't think that is confusing anyone, especially since my encounter locations tend to be very specific. Why use a general term when a specific one is far more explanatory to the GM or reader of a map?
I don't need to redefine the word, as I can be clearly understood by the vocabulary I choose to use. When I do use the word dungeon, it's clear that it is exactly that.
I don't mean to sound snarky in any of this, its just how I define the word.
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gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
I created the original hand-drawn map of the City of Kasai for The Empty Throne module of the Jade Regent AP by Paizo Publishing. However, at the time of commissioning, I was given no specific population to the city, just some assumption to being a large capital city for a Japan analog. It wasn't until Paizo shipped me my copy of The Empty Throne to learn that Kasai is supposed to have 164,000 inhabitants. So I attempted to create a city of around 40,000ish population. I created over 8500 hand-drawn buildings, hundreds of streets, dozens of canals, parks, market areas, cemeteries with unique temples, monasteries, brothels, fortresses that stood out from the mostly rectangular shaped buildings. I did that in 16 hours, although it was not colored, with shadows, etc. Paizo's own cartographer finished the map, although the design was not altered, nor added/subtracted in any way.
I really don't want to have to create many huge cities in my career, professionally or personally - it's a lot of work (even though I work at an incredible speed!) I stick to mostly towns or smaller for my personal mapped communities.
Here's that map at 12 hours into it, I was waiting for Neil Spicer to send me his version of the fortress to make it match while providing an exterior defensive area, along with a temple district and samurai district in that open area to the top right of the drawing.
View attachment kasai-three-quarters.jpg
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